FIA The FIA admits the controversy at the Abu Dhabi GP is “tarnishing the image of the Championship”

[The Artist.....]

The best football analogy I read was that it was like the ref saying "next goal wins" in extra time, then awarding the team that's 2-0 down a penalty.

Except it's not. Probably a closer analogy would be, deep in injury time, Manchester United sending on a super-sub (say Cristiano Ronaldo), with their opponents just trying to run down the clock for a draw (to win the premiership), and the referee playing more time than had originally been added on, and during that additional injury time, Ronaldo scores.

The FA are not disallowing that goal after the fact, even if it was scored after play should have stopped by the rules of the game.

 

[sobriety]

You've missed the bit where the ref arbitrarly changes the rules.

 

[cider_and_toast]

The best football analogy I read was that it was like the ref saying "next goal wins" in extra time, then awarding the team that's 2-0 down a penalty.

Yeah, that's more like it.

So, the rules of football state that the team who has scored the most goals at the end of play wins the match. As we keep hearing, the Refs decision is final so the Ref decides to reset the scores to 0-0 and states next goal wins.

The team who scored the most goals at the end of play wins. Great.

But the Ref made a rule up.

Yeah, and? It was a thrilling finish.

 

[The Artist.....]

You've missed the bit where the ref arbitrarly changes the rules.

No i've not. In the example above, the referee arbitrarily added additional time over and above what was allowed. It's probably a much closer analogy to what happened on Sunday.

The analogy about "next goal wins" ignores the fact that the championship is not won in a single race, but over a season. The scores were tied right until the finish line of the last lap. It doesn't matter how far in the lead you are - a safety car can always eradicate a lead.

 

[The Artist.....]

Yeah, that's more like it.

So, the rules of football state that the team who has scored the most goals at the end of play wins the match. As we keep hearing, the Refs decision is final so the Ref decides to reset the scores to 0-0 and states next goal wins.

The team who scored the most goals at the end of play wins. Great.

But the Ref made a rule up.

Again, this analogy is a bit of a red herring.

The safety car in F1 is a well used device to bring cars closer together when there is an accident. Usually lapped cars are allowed to overtake. (Masi messed up by not allowing the cars to pass much earlier).

The "levelling of the scores" is something that happens regularly in F1, so I don't think this should be part of the argument.

So, you come down to a referee potentially misapplying a rule (even that is arguable). Most sports hold up their hands, and say to the ref - you need to spend a few days/weeks/months on the sidelines, no longer refereeing. Similarly, after a race, where a driver has inappropriately been given a time penalty, served at a pitstop during a race, can't suddenly get that time back!

The sight on Sunday of Mercedes going to the stewards to try to get something changed - I don't know what they hoped to get changed?

• The race result? Well, that would have been unfair to Verstappen, who won the race.
• The championship result? Again, that would have been unfair to Verstappen - he may have done lots wrong in his career, but he didn't do anything wrong this weekend.
• Maybe, they wanted the race to be voided - well, again, this wouldn't have gained them anything, and Verstappen would still be champion.

This entire sight was the thing bringing the sport into disrepute.

 

[FB]

It's the last game of the Premier League season and Liverpool and Manchester City are tied on points at the top of the table. There's 10 minutes left of normal time and City lead Liverpool 2-0. One of the Liverpool team is injured and they have used all of their subs, so will have to play the rest of the game with 10 men. Okay says the Ref, it's not really fair that one team is down to 10 men in such an important game so I'm going to send off one the City players, oh and next goal wins.

Seems fair enough to me. It'll make the last 10 minutes REALLY exciting!

 

[Brogan]

All of the analogies are irrelevant.

There were two options within the rules.

Masi opted for neither of them and implemented something which was not in the rules.

If you disagree with that then you're not a fan of F1.

 

[The Artist.....]

So Brogan - given that that happened, what would you do about it now?

 

[Brogan]

It doesn't matter what I would do about it now.

I would never have ****ed up and cheated like that in the first place.

 

[Hamberg]

So Brogan - given that that happened, what would you do about it now?

FIA need to openly admit they got it wrong. That’s all that’s needed now. But they won’t. And that stinks.

 

[cider_and_toast]

So, you come down to a referee potentially misapplying a rule (even that is arguable).

No, no, no.

This wasn't a mistake. All refs are human and as a rugby player and fan I fully live up to respecting the officials decision on the field of play

This wasn't a misapplying of the rule. The decision made wasn't provided for in the rules at all.

This was a deliberate invention of a ruling in order to absolve the ref from being responsible for the resolution of the world championship but which ultimately and ironically directly resulted in the ref being responsible for the outcome of the world championship.

If that incident had happened 10 laps before the end, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Either both cars would have pitted or one or the other. The lapped cars would have un-lapped themselves and we would have had a 4 or 5 lap shoot out. No problems.

I grow tired of saying this. Be it Hamilton / Verstappen or Verstappen / Hamilton, which ever way the running order would have been, Masi is not there to be the arbitrator of "entertaining race climaxes" he is there to apply the rules. There is no rule to fudge lapped cars. Masi invented one.

It wasn't even equal to all competitors. To go back to the football analogy, he basically told the clubs in third and fourth place in the league, the results in your games won't affect the overall league results so there's no point you finishing your games so you may as well go home.

So I'm not allowed to see Sainz go for the win then because that doesn't matter to the overall championship?

I tell you what. Let's run a one off event at the start of the season and the cars that finish first and second can then battle it out for the rest of the year and sod every one else. They're only there to make up the numbers anyway.

Of all the examples of great refereeing cock ups of all time, can you give me any other examples where a rule has been "misapplied" to quote you, for the simple reason that it would be a better way to finish a match?

 

[MarkP2017]

As much as we may dislike a referee's decision, in other sports, once the referee has spoken, there is little comeback. FIFA didn't order a world cup game result to be reversed when Graham Poll showed 3 yellow cards.

Similarly, when goals have been (incorrectly) awarded, they aren't retrospectively chalked off. (See, for instance, 1966 World Cup).

The only examples I can think of where a result is overturned because the referees have mis-applied rules is where direct corruption is involved (e.g. payments to referees). Masi was not making a decision to advantage Hamilton or Verstappen. Masi basically wanted the race to end as a race.

Oh, he ended it as a race alright.

 

[Brogan]

Indeed.

Let's not forget that if the other cars had been waved through then Verstappen would have been under attack from those behind him, which would have made a massive difference in how he attacked Hamilton.

 

[The Artist.....]

Brogan - it does matter though, because officials make mistakes - it happens in all sports. Even you aren't infallible!

People on here (but more to the point on other social media) are tearing their hair out, saying Mercedes should have appealed further, or gone to arbitration, or whatever, but the key thing is that sometimes you have to ask whether the actions are going to achieve anything, and also whether the actions tarnish the sport.

Mercedes should have accepted the result on Sunday (which would have quietened the consternations outside), and congratulated Verstappen. Then, if the teams (as a whole - for arguments sake, let's ignore Red Bull and Alpha Tauri) were to, behind the scenes, push this hard with the FIA, we could get exactly the same outcome, but without the massive damage to F1 as a whole.

Lots of things in F1 are about creating a show; compulsory tyre stops, safety cars bunching the field up, using the tyre from Q2 for the race, DRS, etc... But by-and-large, F1 is still a race, and usually a fair one.

FIA need to openly admit they got it wrong. That’s all that’s needed now. But they won’t. And that stinks.

This is probably an achievable aim - although, just like with political parties, I can imagine that the FIA will be very reluctant to ever lose face.

 

[The Artist.....]

Indeed.

Let's not forget that if the other cars had been waved through then Verstappen would have been under attack from those behind him, which would have made a massive difference in how he attacked Hamilton.

From Sainz, who had had his tyres on since lap 19?

 

[Brogan]

So you're saying a car with old tyres was no match for Verstappen who was given an unfair advantage.

Got it.

 

[The Artist.....]

Brogan there is a difference between a car with old tyres trying to overtake a car with new tyres, and a car with new tyres trying to overtake a car with old tyres.

 

[Il_leone]

Masi is using "The Race Director can do what he sees fit overriding everything else in article 15" as his defense

In doing so it overrides 48.12 and 48.13

Maybe Mercedes should have gone and appealed and used the accusation he was coerced line to change that decision not by his team but by Red Bull

I will say if Ferrari and Mclaren were battling hard for 3rd in constructors and they were 3rd to 6th ..I think one of those teams would have protested as well about Sainz allowed to get away whilst the others were not
If we mention football again if the ref screws up the result stands I am afraid unless it was proven the match was fixed. The only decisions that are overturned are VAr related or mistaken identity in sending players off. You can say that about Masi he screwed up because he got influenced

 

[cider_and_toast]

Brogan there is a difference between a car with old tyres trying to overtake a car with new tyres, and a car with new tyres trying to overtake a car with old tyres.

Indeed, it's clearly easier for a car on new tyres to overtake those on older rubber.

Imagine how quickly Verstappen may have been able to clear three lapped cars on his fresh softs and with the aid of Blue flags. Who knows, he may have even been able to force his way past Hamilton on the same lap. Now what a finish that would have been.

And you're right, it would have been extremely difficult for Sainz to have a go at overtaking Verstappen so it was probably best not to let him have a go anyway.

 

[Il_leone]

The Artist..... Mercedes used the words "the FIA are accountable " for this mess. The FIA can try and sweep it under the carpet good luck with that or update the regulations about the lapped cars scenario .

If the FIA come out and say Masi has their vote of confidence then if he messes up next time what should be the repercussions then?

I really do think the FIA will need to want a clean break from this when the new president comes in so Masi is an easy scapegoat to do this