Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[ecclestoned]

He is good with a clear track in front of him but until he shows that he can slice his way through a field then I don't see him as a racer.

BTW Welcome to the site Ecclestoned, Excellent name and avatar!

Thanks for the compliment and welcoming me,makes me feel more comfortable in my neurological cockpit.

 

[Speshal]

You'll need your complimentary as well

 

[snowy]

What does the mean?

Just curious...

 

[ecclestoned]

You'll need your complimentary as well

I've been wearing a pothelmet under my toupet since the early ninetees;actually it was a vintage german spikehelmet,but I removed the spike after Schumacher's first career.

 

[Bushi]

Very quick, no doubt about that.
He can also put in consistent laps over a Grand Prix.

However, he was almost beaten by Webber last year, who a lot of people wrote off.
He also has a tendency to lose composure when being challenged, as evidenced by the number of times he has driven into, or attempted to drive into people.

So far, all he has really shown me is he can qualify on pole and then lead from the front to the flag.

Until he is in a car which is 2nd, 3rd or 4th best and still manages to get poles and wins, and matures when it comes to wheel-to-wheel racing, I am unable to determine just how good he is.

You mean like the Torro Rosso he drove to pole and a win?
He had some very good drives with the Torro Rosso not just Monza.

 

[Bushi]

Definitely not.

If he had spent more time going forwards instead of swerving and blocking not one, but two cars, he wouldn't have ended up third by the first corner.

Don't think so, if you look at the T-cam of Lewis his car, you can clearly see that Hamilton has a much better start than Vettel.
Vettel was just on to low revs to get of the starting line.

 

[Pyrope]

Don't think so, if you look at the T-cam of Lewis his car, you can clearly see that Hamilton has a much better start than Vettel.
Vettel was just on to low revs to get of the starting line.

He was at 12,000 rpm, which is the accepted normal F1 start (a bit like us mere mortals pinning a car at 4000), but he didn't get a clean clutch bite. If you actually listen to the engine you can here him dip the clutch and re-release it about a second after the lights go out. Was that his fault? Who knows, but zig-zagging down the straight when you are already moving significantly slower than the cars around you was pretty dim.

 

[cynical old Hector]

Vettel does seem to polarize opinion, either he's a sublime and fast driver or he's only any good when he's leading a race in the best car ?

As his given job is "result driven", it's hard to fault him.He gets pole position and he wins races.Am sure RBR would comment, "What's not to like ?".
Yes he has been clumsy at times, his weaving at starts leaves a lot to be desired too, but I doubt RBR will lose any sleep over his performance.

That said, I would like to see him partnering Hamilton or Alonso.

 

[Marcus Julian]

Wasn't Vettel in last place due to the puncture he recieved after trying to force his way past his team-mate after a poor start? He was helped out a great deal due to a safety car. It was a great run to get past vastly slower cars though.

Hamilton slit his tyre from behind. But forcing your way pass (aka overtaking) is what they do in F1. Not sure when the last time was that any of the front runners waved a hand and let their opponents carry on ahead. lol. Also, getting past vastly slower cars in the back and mid grid are what all the front runners must do from behind. Your comment reads as if those cars become super powered when Hamilton, Webber or Alonso must challenge them, but retain their putt putt status when Vettel comes through. I am unsure where you are trying to go with that post, but the fact is that Vettel is a very good race car driver. If all of what you wrote was to intimate otherwise, I would disagree. He came in and collected all the titles from the current title holders like Hamilton and Alonso - independent as to whether he was in the midgrid STRF or the good to stellar RB series cars.

For my part, I have no desire to convince anyone. I say let Vettel do his talking on the track, just as all the other drivers must. I'm just glad we have a number of good drivers to talk about - that Vettel is the best of them to me is an idea apart as everyone has their opinion on that.

 

[MCLS]

. But forcing your way pass (aka overtaking) is what they do in F1 .

Not by bouncing your car off over cars like at Silverstone.

 

[teabagyokel]

Your comment reads as if those cars become super powered when Hamilton, Webber or Alonso must challenge them, but retain their putt putt status when Vettel comes through.

To be fair, MJ, that Red Bull was very fast at Silverstone, and Vettel did look like a man who'd given up until the Safety Car. The cars he was overtaking were pretty slow in comparison, in that race.

Silverstone was part of a poor run of form for Vettel; I don't think those 4 races (Silverstone, Hockenheim, Budapest, Spa) make him a bad driver. Most drivers go through poor races, and Vettel's mistakes in Silverstone and Budapest were exaggerated by circumstance.

Alonso's had his bad races (Canada 2005 & 2007, Spain 2007, Turkey 2010 for example) as has Hamilton (China 2007, Bahrain 2008, Canada 2008, Malaysia 2011 for example).

You must judge as an overall season, not individual races. He made more mistakes in 2009 than 2010, and I see no reason why that should not decline again!

 

[F1Yorkshire]

For my part, I have no desire to convince anyone. I say let Vettel do his talking on the track, just as all the other drivers must. I'm just glad we have a number of good drivers to talk about - that Vettel is the best of them to me is an idea apart as everyone has their opinion on that.

I have no doubts that Vettel is a good fast driver but so far he has not had the opportunity to show that he is anything other than a qualifying specialist when he has a fast car underneath him. When he has ended up behind other drivers he has made a lot of elementary mistakes such as his overtakes on Webber at Turkey, Button & Liuzzi at Spa and Sutil at Silverstone.

His 1st win at Monza was an excellent performance in tricky conditions but the Toro Rosso was basically a carbon copy of a Red Bull at the time. We won't know exactly how a driver will measure up in comparison to others unless we had a spec series with equal cars.

The question you have to ask is If the situation was altered and we had any other of the world champions in the 2nd Red Bull car for this season would Vettel still be the one leading the championship?

 

[FB]

I no fan of Mark Webber F1Y but that seems a little harsh. Mark was very close to being World Champion last year, although I have to admit he does look a bit out or sorts this year (until the green light came on last Sunday that is).

As to Vettel, I'm not sure what he has to prove. He's won lot's of Grand Prix, he's a World Champion and, as far as I can work out, there's nothing in the rules which says you not allowed to win a race starting from pole so best of luck to him. As Galahad pointed out in an earlier post it's easier to make a fast driver consistent than a consistent driver fast and there is no doubt Vettel is fast.

I for one am looking forward to many battles between Vettel and Hamilton in years to come and hope Ferrari can find some pace so Alonso can join in to. It's not often we get three different but fast drivers on the grid together and, fingers crossed, they will be racing one another for many years to come.

 

[EvilWhippet]

It's too early to be judging Webber. Around about this time last year I remember people on bbc606 having a vote for worst driver of the year so far and Webber was a main contender, then he came back to become title favourite at one point. People were also writing off Hamilton after barca. It's always worth remembering just how long a season is.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I meant nothing against Webber in that last post, the point I was trying to make is if we had the best drivers in the same machinery then we would get a better idea of how fast one driver is compared to another. Right now the Red Bull is still the faster car so comparisons are hard to make.

 

[MCLS]

Around about this time last year I remember people on bbc606 having a vote for worst driver of the year so far and Webber was a main contender, .

If 606 has taught us anything it is to ignore any votes for best/worst driver

 

[no-FIAt-please]

The fact that Vettel lost around 65 points due to reliability and still beat Webber to the title only confirms the fact that Webber shouldn't (IMO) be included in the 'Ace' category.

 

[snowy]

Right now the Red Bull is still the faster car so comparisons are hard to make.

Unless of course the Red Bull isn't the fastest car and just appears to be when driven by Messrs Vettel and Webber.

The fact that Vettel lost around 65 points due to reliability and still beat Webber to the title only confirms the fact that Webber shouldn't (IMO) be included in the 'Ace' category.

Mark was on course to win the Championship and no one would have begrudged him if he had won it. In Spain, Monaco, Great Britain and Hungary he blew Sebastian into the weeds.

There are two important things to consider when judging Mark Webber's 2010:
Being demonstrably shown that you are not held in high regard by the team and breaking a shoulder blade are both going to impact on your self-esteem and performance.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Mark was on course to win the Championship and no one would have begrudged him if he had won it. In Spain, Monaco, Great Britain and Hungary he blew Sebastian into the weeds.

Emphasis Mine.

RBR would have rather lost the Championship than have Webber win it over Vettel. Just as Ferrari didn't want Irvine to win when Schumacher was in line for 99.

Mark nearly allowed this to happen in Korea, after his teammate (with a much smaller chance for the title) took 7 potential points off him in Japan.

The better Red Bull driver won in 2010 anyway. That would have been a miracle Title for Webber.

 

[ecclestoned]

Wunderkind or not,we have all seen him veer to the right(or left )at starts.
But before oficially crowning him the chop kid,I wanted to see how the others behaved when he wasn't on pole.So, with some spare time in hand,I watched all 9 starts of 2010 again where Vettel wasn't leading the pack.
In Malaysia, Webber starts straight in what looks like a stretch limo version of the Red Bull(but actually is Webber+Vettel stuck to his rear like a bad rash),then steers right towards Rosberg.
In Monaco,Kubica (2nd) moves right on Vettel(3rd).
In Valencia(where I thought Vettel wasn't on pole,but he was),Vettel got away cleanly,and Webber(2nd) moved right on Hamilton(3rd).
In Italy,Alonso goes right on Button.
In Singapore,Alonso moves left on Vettel.
In Brasil,Hulkenberg goes left on Vettel.
By watching all these moves,my conclusion would be that at the start of a race they all demonstrate a somewhat similar body/car language,when under threat of losing position;I would call it the "oh no you won't"move.
Of course,we've seen most chop starts by Vettel,but then again he was more on pole than the other racers and consequently the center of attention for us and his nearest competitors.
P.S.:I didn't add any links,because with my technical efficacy I might have directed you guys to the Flintstone races in Jurassic Park.