Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Brogan]

What are Vettel's overtaking stats against top drivers?

Well it's difficult to quantify something like that as Vettel more often than not qualifies on pole and therefore has no-one to overtake.
What you would need to do is identify all those races where he was in a position to overtake someone and count the instances where he did.

 

[Boyle]

We saw that at Silverstone last year and he pretty much hit everyone, and Belgium

I think you are being a bit harsh with regards to the Spa incident with Button. I said this at the time that the Red Bull front wing flexed so much (let's not get into this here) that it caused him to lose control of the back end of the car and unluckily Jenson got in the way. Totally agree with you about Silverstone though.

Say what you like about his start on Sunday (veering right...) but I thought he showed maturity in giving Lewis enough space so as not to cause a collision. I don't think the Seb of last year would have done the same.

His defence against Hamilton on worn tyres showed his improving race craft - he held him up for 2 laps - and both drivers should be commended for avoiding a collision, not just Lewis.

I think being the youngest world champion speaks for itself really and just because he is a different type of driver from Hamilton/Alonso shouldn't detract from his talent. Certainly a wunderkid in my eyes.

 

[MCLS]

Boyle99, don't forget he ran over liuzzi's front wing as well

 

[Boyle]

Ah yes, that hints at desperation of being in a title scrap though. Alonso made the biggest mistake of that race in binning it when under no pressure from another car for the same reasons. It's kind of understandable at that stage of the season - look at Webber at Korea and against Hamilton in Singapore.

I am by no means saying that wasn't poor but more understandable given the pressure. If he can improve that aspect of his game (which he undoubtedly will given that he is only 23!) he will be a very formidable opponent for his rivals.

 

[MCLS]

In terms of China it was the good and the bad, he isn't reckless when it comes to race defending as we saw with Hamilton but he still has the Schumacher style 'chop' starts which he needs to curb.

 

[Boyle]

Yes but like has been said, the fact that - along with Hamilton - he is doing his early years under the limelight is going to mean his mistakes are going to be scrutinised more heavily than, for example, Sutil's at Force India.

 

[Grizzly]

His little stop on the curb to defend against Hamilton's enormous relative corner exit speed was quite cunning

 

[Marcus Julian]

Vettel is dope! He is definitely a top class driver - although still young. That goes for other drivers too. The young ones are only going to get better and the thought is daunting. He's only 23 and already WDC and still improving. I don't think he needs any hype - he'll do his show and tell on the track, just as other great drivers have done and are doing. Winning from pole means that you had to drive that top car precisely and fast, that is a great feat. Driving from P1 to flag with minimum passing is also not the cake walk some seem to believe. You can lose that position quick if you don't tend to your tyres or drive imprecisely and lose time to those behind (ask poor Fisi). Vettel has also shown that he can move through the field when he has had the rare bad luck of finding himself in the back (most recently, GB 2010). He makes mistakes and has incidents like the others, but that is normal. One would believe these lessen, but in racing that is not always the case - even the experienced greats continue to have incidents and face mistakes. I like that there are so many great drivers on the grid these days. And that includes some that are up and coming out of the mid grid car category...

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Vettel has also shown that he can move through the field when he has had the rare bad luck of finding himself in the back (most recently, GB 2010).

Hmm would that be when Vettel smashed into anybody and everybody despite having a huge car advantage, and we all know how Spa '10 turned out...

 

[RickD]

I think you are being a bit harsh with regards to the Spa incident with Button.

I don't. I think that moving about the way he was would make any car try to switch ends. It was an immature move attempted by a driver that doesn't seem to know how to overtake even now.

He did pass on track in China, but only with the help of that god awful DRS system, not in any way with skill or by merit..

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

I don't think it's as simple as a question of 'Is he or isn't he' (for any driver, let alone Vettel), so I won't be casting a vote.
Suffice to say that Sebastien is a superbly skilled driver and very good at making the most of his equipment as is pretty much any champion, by definition (I don't subscribe to the idea that some champions are 'worthy' and others 'unworthy', 'less worthy' or somehow 'lucky', that some folks seem to). But he also makes errors, just like every other past champion has and every future champion will.

 

[Boyle]

I don't. I think that moving about the way he was would make any car try to switch ends. It was an immature move attempted by a driver that doesn't seem to know how to overtake even now.

He did pass on track in China, but only with the help of that god awful DRS system, not in any way with skill or by merit..

Well when I look at the footage of that crash, if that wasn't the over flexing Red Bull wing (and intstead the Mclaren wing) the change of direction wouldn't have caused him to crash. I have the feeling we're going to have to agree to disagree here

 

[sportsman]

I don't think it's as simple as a question of 'Is he or isn't he' (for any driver, let alone Vettel), so I won't be casting a vote.
Suffice to say that Sebastien is a superbly skilled driver and very good at making the most of his equipment as is pretty much any champion, by definition (I don't subscribe to the idea that some champions are 'worthy' and others 'unworthy', 'less worthy' or somehow 'lucky', that some folks seem to). But he also makes errors, just like every other past champion has and every future champion will.

An excellent post Chadders.I congratulate you on your succint unbiased summary of Vettel's abilities.
Which I fully agree with.

 

[RickD]

Well when I look at the footage of that crash, if that wasn't the over flexing Red Bull wing (and intstead the Mclaren wing) the change of direction wouldn't have caused him to crash. I have the feeling we're going to have to agree to disagree here

Oh, I don't mind disagreeing, if we didn't, we wouldn't be here..

Just try that kind of move under braking in a normal car and see how much the back end wants to become the front end, then think how much more it would want to in a car with all the drive at the back and the amount of traction an F1 car has. The wing probably didn't help, but wasn't the main cause of that incident (I don't want to call it an accident as it wasn't accidental, not when a driver is supposed to be good enough to be in F1 ).

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

An excellent post Chadders.I congratulate you on your succint unbiased summary of Vettel's abilities.
Which I fully agree with.

Thanks Sportsman, and all the others who gave me 'likes' for that comment.
I guess it makes up for my one about Hamilton's 'unilateral' 3 stop strategy intent in another thread.

 

[Marcus Julian]

Hmm would that be when Vettel smashed into anybody and everybody despite having a huge car advantage, and we all know how Spa '10 turned out...

Not Spa that was a bad day, they all have those. I was refering to Silverstone. He came from last to 7th in a great run. I don't know if you made it out to the race, but the crowd was rabid everytime he went by and cheering him on pass by pass as if we were in Germany, lol. It is just a love of racing, digging some great driving. I wish I could have seen Webber do it in China, same kind of run. We've seen this before from Hamilton, Alonso - remember Kimi in 05? That was a sick drive.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Wasn't Vettel in last place due to the puncture he recieved after trying to force his way past his team-mate after a poor start? He was helped out a great deal due to a safety car. It was a great run to get past vastly slower cars though.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Wasn't Vettel in last place due to the puncture he recieved after trying to force his way past his team-mate after a poor start? He was helped out a great deal due to a safety car. It was a great run to get past vastly slower cars though.

Including that nice, clean overtaking move on Sutil?

 

[ecclestoned]

Wasn't Vettel in last place due to the puncture he recieved after trying to force his way past his team-mate after a poor start? He was helped out a great deal due to a safety car. It was a great run to get past vastly slower cars though.

Most of the media went for a puncture by touching Hamilton's front wing,but since neither driver were aware of that and I couldn't notice it on the footage,I would think he damaged his tyre by going off track in Copse,where Mark tried to swap nose cones again.Webber actually crowded him over the track line,which would be penalised this season with the new regulations. I suppose Vettel preferred to take a walk on the wild side instead of colliding with his team-mate again.
He must have been a happier bunny when he saw that safety car come out(not in hungary though),I'm sure,but he did overtake the likes of Massa,Schumacher,Hulkenberg,Petrov and Sutil(agressively)
Whatever,he fought himself back up the field from a lost position and scored 6 points that came in handy at the end of the season.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

He is good with a clear track in front of him but until he shows that he can slice his way through a field then I don't see him as a racer.

BTW Welcome to the site Ecclestoned, Excellent name and avatar!