Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they :censored: fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

035336-pn-image-sport-sebastian-vettel.jpg
 
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snowy said:
I am going to get into a lot of trouble for this... but the last thing I want to do is start a Hamilton thread... :sick:

Sebastian stands far more chance of achieving his goal of being a multiple WDC than Lewis at the moment, simply because he is (I'm going to get flamed for this) not a "racer"! Lewis loves to race, he is accused of being manufactured but only a small part of him is if any. Lewis loves to race and tussle and duck and dive, whereas Sebastian is not at home in the cut and thrust of heated combat. Sebastian is methodical and single minded in his pursuit of a win and is exasperated when his teammate beats him.

Lewis is not single minded enough to mould a team of people around him as Michael Schumacher did in the 90's and 0's, whereas Sebastian is. When it comes to race, race weekend and team strategy Sebastian will win out time and again. Because Lewis will never be able to make the hard decisions which involve the hiring and firing of people. Sebastian won't have that problem, the only problems he may encounter is Newey getting bored or Fernando and Ferrari getting their act together long term.
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You won't get flamed by me snowy.
Your post is a very good and accurate summary of Vettel's abilities.These are the very reasons I consider him the real deal.
Which I fully agree with.
In my humble opinion of course.
 
As sportsman said, no flaming necessary.
Everyone has their own opinions, it would be a boring sport and forum otherwise.

Just imagine it...

New thread: I think Vettel is one of the best drivers in the sport
Poster 1: Do you agree?
Poster 2: Yes
Poster 3: Yes
Poster 4: No...I mean yes
etc.

New thread: Vettel will win the WDC this year
Poster 1: Who agrees with me?
Poster 2: Me
Poster 3: Me
...

:D
 
snowy said:
Yeah! it was a mediocre drive and he had no competition or lousy weather to contend with... ;)
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Kovalainen, are you being serious? He was on his own all race. It was only another McLaren strategy gamble that failed that stopped Hamilton from winning, (or at least right at the front fighting with Vettel)
 
snowy said:
I am going to get into a lot of trouble for this... but the last thing I want to do is start a Hamilton thread... :sick:

Sebastian stands far more chance of achieving his goal of being a multiple WDC than Lewis at the moment, simply because he is (I'm going to get flamed for this) not a "racer"! Lewis loves to race, he is accused of being manufactured but only a small part of him is if any. Lewis loves to race and tussle and duck and dive, whereas Sebastian is not at home in the cut and thrust of heated combat. Sebastian is methodical and single minded in his pursuit of a win and is exasperated when his teammate beats him.

Lewis is not single minded enough to mould a team of people around him as Michael Schumacher did in the 90's and 0's, whereas Sebastian is. When it comes to race, race weekend and team strategy Sebastian will win out time and again. Because Lewis will never be able to make the hard decisions which involve the hiring and firing of people. Sebastian won't have that problem, the only problems he may encounter is Newey getting bored or Fernando and Ferrari getting their act together long term.
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I don't think this is really fair to either driver, although your reasoning is sound.

Vettel hasn't recently had to show whether he can fight and go wheel to wheel, and there's nothing bad about that. I'm not going to fault Vettel because nobody can get close. However he has the fastest car, I think. At times when Hamilton's had the fastest car (and a couple where he didn't) he's started at the front and controlled the race too, plenty of times. When was the last time Hamilton a car in which anyone could control the pace? Spa? Look what happened.

As for there personalities and how they could galvanize a team; we don't know them. Well I don't anyway...
 
EvilWhippet said:
Vettel hasn't recently had to show whether he can fight and go wheel to wheel, and there's nothing bad about that. I'm not going to fault Vettel because nobody can get close. However he has the fastest car, I think. At times when Hamilton's had the fastest car (and a couple where he didn't) he's started at the front and controlled the race too, plenty of times. When was the last time Hamilton a car in which anyone could control the pace? Spa? Look what happened.
Click to expand

China 2008 was pretty dull, no?

MCLS said:
With all due respect the car was quick there. Even Bourdais managed to qualify fourth before grid prolems
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MCLS said:
Kovalainen, are you being serious? He was on his own all race. It was only another McLaren strategy gamble that failed that stopped Hamilton from winning, (or at least right at the front fighting with Vettel)
Click to expand

He may have been all on his own, but I don't think it would be reasonable to claim that it was a slam dunk to win a race in a Toro Rosso. No-one had any data, there hadn't been a wet race at Monza for 30+ years. Kovalainen qualified 0.076 seconds behind him and was in the World Champion car!

He was nine-tenths clear of Bourdais in Q3!

A wet race in 2008 - you'd predict Hamilton to win it, for sure. Heidfeld had been runner-up in Silverstone and Kubica in Monaco, showing BMW had pace in the rain.

It was something quite special for that car to win that race. Something very special. Something almost unprecedented!
 
MCLS said:
Bearing in mind the car was pretty much a re liveried Red Bull
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This was 2008. STR were 6th in the WCC, RBR 7th. They were beaten by:
  • Ferrari
  • McLaren
  • BMW
  • Renault
  • Toyota
OK, the STR/RBR was handy in the wet as seen in Brazil. However, it was a surprise to see Mr. Vettel on that top step. In 2008 you would not have expected a Toro Rosso or even a full Red Bull to win any race of any moistness.

In 2007-08, the best car in changeable and wet conditions was the McLaren.
 
Galvanizing a team and doing what Michael Schumacher and Valentino Rossi did are quite different. They demanded and got teams shaped specifically around their strengths and weaknesses. Their mentors, Willi Weber, Ross Brawn, in the case of Michael, Mick Doohan and Jeremy Burgess for Valentino were especially supportive, insightful and creative.

Sebastian has Adrian Newey and Christian Horner(love him or loath him, he runs circles round everyone). Lewis no longer has anyone with those kind of credentials and Kudos.

Martin Whitmarsh and Simon Fuller couldn't be further from inspiring than the 2CV.
 
Yes and the McLaren of Hamilton had to start from the back. We all know Kovi couldn't drive that McLaren for toffee, so I fail to see your point tby.

When Vettel has had pressure and traffic, he has fluffed it more times than not..
 
After qualifying though it wasn't a suprise. If it was Hamilton second on the grid instead of Kovy I doubt Vettel would have walked away with it
 
RickD said:
Yes and the McLaren of Hamilton had to start from the back.
Click to expand

And whose fault was that?

Vettel bested the Formula One field, at the age of 21. He'd led 3 laps in Formula One before, while Hamilton pitted in Fuji in 2007. He'd never won a race, stood on the podium or sat on pole. To keep his head in his first experience of leading a World Championship event, in a Toro Rosso in the wet was some achievement.

Even if there was not a car in his mirrors, the pressure was immense. How many times have sportsmen choked under pressure. Rory McIlroy being the obvious recent example.

You can say what you like about the guy, but first find me someone in F1 whose ever done anything comparable to Monza 2008 and then we'll talk.
 
snowy said:
Galvanizing a team and doing what Michael Schumacher and Valentino Rossi did are quite different. They demanded and got teams shaped specifically around their strengths and weaknesses. Their mentors, Willi Weber, Ross Brawn, in the case of Michael, Mick Doohan and Jeremy Burgess for Valentino were especially supportive, insightful and creative.

Sebastian has Adrian Newey and Christian Horner(love him or loath him, he runs circles round everyone). Lewis no longer has anyone with those kind of credentials and Kudos.

Martin Whitmarsh and Simon Fuller couldn't be further from inspiring than the 2CV.
Click to expand

I don't see the value of Newey and Horner in this case. Newey's an aero expert so having a good relationship with one driver he'll still make great cars. Horner just sticks his foot in his mouth all day long. Hamilton is part of the fabric of the Mclaren team as he's been there for such a long time. There's only a potential for difference in the way they work their teams in my opinion.
 
MCLS said:
Button Hungary 2006?
Click to expand

Not even close, sorry.

At that point JB had sat on pole 3 times, scored 13 podiums and led 12 Grands Prix. He was already a veteran and would have gone nowhere near winning that race if Alonso's wheel nuts hadn't failed!
 

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