I'm sure that they can all agree when it comes to sticking it to Todt.
I think the format is flawed, which makes it easier to put on a poor show, but I'm sure that if they tried the teams could make a better fist of it than they are.
Qualifying restructured
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I'm sure that they can all agree when it comes to sticking it to Todt.
I think the format is flawed, which makes it easier to put on a poor show, but I'm sure that if they tried the teams could make a better fist of it than they are.
The main issues with the new format are caused by the limited number of sets of tyres available, the high degradation on whatever the softest compound is and the time needed for pit stops between flying laps.
1) It doesn't make sense for the teams to take enough of the softest compound to complete two runs in each qualifying session as that then compromises race strategy by having less of the harder compounds available, or less new softer compounds.
2) The degradation on the softest available compound is generally too high to be able to set two competitive flying laps.
3) Because of 2, it takes approximately 4 minutes between finishing a flying lap and being able to start the next flying lap (getting back to the pits, changing the tyres, refuelling and completing the out lap).This means if you're in the bottom 3 when you complete a lap (and the elimination phase of the session has started) you're effectively already knocked out.
You'd need to have rules that force the cars to be on track almost continuously with harder tyres for the new format to work with the timings how they are. An alternative system that keeps the idea of punishing mistakes faster to mix the grid up a bit could be to have many (~5?) shorter sessions in which each driver is only allowed to complete 1 flying lap and the slowest few (four or five?) drivers are knocked out after each one.
Or they could just be sensible and revert back to last year's (generally very popular) format and spend time thinking about F1's actual problems...
1) It doesn't make sense for the teams to take enough of the softest compound to complete two runs in each qualifying session as that then compromises race strategy by having less of the harder compounds available, or less new softer compounds.
2) The degradation on the softest available compound is generally too high to be able to set two competitive flying laps.
3) Because of 2, it takes approximately 4 minutes between finishing a flying lap and being able to start the next flying lap (getting back to the pits, changing the tyres, refuelling and completing the out lap).This means if you're in the bottom 3 when you complete a lap (and the elimination phase of the session has started) you're effectively already knocked out.
You'd need to have rules that force the cars to be on track almost continuously with harder tyres for the new format to work with the timings how they are. An alternative system that keeps the idea of punishing mistakes faster to mix the grid up a bit could be to have many (~5?) shorter sessions in which each driver is only allowed to complete 1 flying lap and the slowest few (four or five?) drivers are knocked out after each one.
Or they could just be sensible and revert back to last year's (generally very popular) format and spend time thinking about F1's actual problems...
I honestly think that even if they had an unlimited tyre allocation, the system would still me a mess.
Let's say you just finished flying lap 1. The shortest amount of time you could have a better time posted would be 5 mins and 20 secs later on a typical circuit (like Bahrain).
That is after 1m45s in lap, 5s new tyres fitted, 2m00s outlap and 1m30s flying lap.
So you would have to be at least 4th from last when you finish lap 1 for there even to be any point in trying at all.
Say instead they raced on rocks that didn't degrade at all. Even then, they still would need the cool down lap to recharge the battery so even then, you are still looking at 3m15s before you can post your second time.
Instead, I think they have all realised that they are better off saving the tyre allocations and engine miles and not wasting time trying to do the impossible and make the system work. It can't work. It is an unworkable system.
Let's say you just finished flying lap 1. The shortest amount of time you could have a better time posted would be 5 mins and 20 secs later on a typical circuit (like Bahrain).
That is after 1m45s in lap, 5s new tyres fitted, 2m00s outlap and 1m30s flying lap.
So you would have to be at least 4th from last when you finish lap 1 for there even to be any point in trying at all.
Say instead they raced on rocks that didn't degrade at all. Even then, they still would need the cool down lap to recharge the battery so even then, you are still looking at 3m15s before you can post your second time.
Instead, I think they have all realised that they are better off saving the tyre allocations and engine miles and not wasting time trying to do the impossible and make the system work. It can't work. It is an unworkable system.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
jez101 I agree. On top of that it will always mean the last minutes of the session there re no cars running. Because in Q11 and Q2 the ones on the brink of elimination will have to do their lap at such a time that they won't be pushed out unexpectedly. Which mean the last three to be eliminated will fo their 2nd run at approximitely the same time. And after that there will be no time to get into the pits and get new tyres.
Maybe in Q3 the last two standing would have time for the pole shoot-out.
The guys that thought the system up, could have figured it out for themselves, it's not rocketscience.
And on a wet Spa, not even everyone would have time to set a single flying lap.
Maybe in Q3 the last two standing would have time for the pole shoot-out.
The guys that thought the system up, could have figured it out for themselves, it's not rocketscience.
And on a wet Spa, not even everyone would have time to set a single flying lap.
Wombcat
Podium Finisher
Which could lead to the equally unfair situation that two cars improved their time, and the guy who thought he was safe is eliminated, even though in his originally allocated time time (3 minutes) he would have been able to do another faster lap.
It wouldn't improve the format, it would just mean that there is even les running at the end, because everyone has to get out erlier for their second run.
Op top of that, it would really even more confuse matters for the viewer.
ATL11
Pole Sitter
Bit fuzzy now on who's in, properly out, out but not out (no time to respond) & who's shaking it all about.
You do the Hokey Cokey, you turn around & that's what it's all about.
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rufus_mcdufus
Champion Elect
Well after a 90 minute meeting today, F1 bosses failed to decide on what to do. Apparently going back to the old qualifying system wasn't even on the table (thanks to Bernie & Todt). Some new ideas tabled though apparently.
ATL11
Pole Sitter
Qualifying is the victim in all this, this is just a power struggle between F1's leaders & the teams.
F1 leader's want to flex their muscles over bringing in razzmatazz & their own spec engine to reduce the power Mercedes & Ferrari have vs the Teams wanting a better say in the sport with less regulations, modernisation & money distribution.
The teams know they have F1 over a barrel with qualifying, were they can make it as boring as they want.
F1 (Bernie & Todt) know they can control the sport & are under pressure from promoters to increase the spectacle vs the millions they (promoters) pay, but can't control the show.
To top it all off any rule changes need to be done with all agreeing, difficult to do with so many hidden agendas & sub plots.
These 2 kind of describe the position Todt & Bernie are in:
F1 leader's want to flex their muscles over bringing in razzmatazz & their own spec engine to reduce the power Mercedes & Ferrari have vs the Teams wanting a better say in the sport with less regulations, modernisation & money distribution.
The teams know they have F1 over a barrel with qualifying, were they can make it as boring as they want.
F1 (Bernie & Todt) know they can control the sport & are under pressure from promoters to increase the spectacle vs the millions they (promoters) pay, but can't control the show.
To top it all off any rule changes need to be done with all agreeing, difficult to do with so many hidden agendas & sub plots.
These 2 kind of describe the position Todt & Bernie are in:
They do all realise they are turning F1 into an absolute joke and killing it don't they? I mean they must know that right? Right?
rufus_mcdufus
Champion Elect
Aggregate times seems to be the Bernie/Todt favourite now. Haven't we been there before?
Revealed: The new qualifying idea F1 is looking at
One criticism of the 2015-and-before format was the results were too predictable (i.e the fastest cars did better - duh). But I fail to see how aggregate times would be any less predictable.
Revealed: The new qualifying idea F1 is looking at
One criticism of the 2015-and-before format was the results were too predictable (i.e the fastest cars did better - duh). But I fail to see how aggregate times would be any less predictable.
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Dartman
Banned
Yes, but do they care? No, it's an ego thing, Todt does as Bernie says, all the FIA power was signed away years ago under Max. The old Brabham team ran F1 for years and and parts of it still do
ATL11
Pole Sitter
Aggregate times I assume looking at both Melbourne & Bahrain wouldn't change much in regards to the positions? Fastest are the fastest.
Now a more radical approach if they want mixed up grids, would be to not make it souly about time.
How about something similar to what they do on Tractor pulling, where depending on position, distance & speed the weight shifts accordingly?
Now I'm not talking Hamilton's Mercedes pulling a trailer with shifting weights on it, more those dreaded words 'weight ballast'.
It's the only way it'll mix up the grid, more success more weight they have to carry in the 2017 glovebox.
Combined times are rubbish as the issue is the time the top teams are doing well, why compound the issue more.
The future is weight.
Now a more radical approach if they want mixed up grids, would be to not make it souly about time.
How about something similar to what they do on Tractor pulling, where depending on position, distance & speed the weight shifts accordingly?
Now I'm not talking Hamilton's Mercedes pulling a trailer with shifting weights on it, more those dreaded words 'weight ballast'.
It's the only way it'll mix up the grid, more success more weight they have to carry in the 2017 glovebox.
Combined times are rubbish as the issue is the time the top teams are doing well, why compound the issue more.
The future is weight.
rufus_mcdufus
Champion Elect
If they want it more random, why not just pull names out of a hat? They could make it like the National Lottery show. It'd be really excitingzzzz.
The only thing that's failed before is the one they're going for.
Aggregate times kind of spits in the face of qualifying being all about ultimate place. Any sense of drama in the second runs yesterday would have been completely removed as Rosberg wouldn't have needed to push to the limit on his 2nd run to take pole after Hamilton's mistake in the first run, for example.
Also, at this point the only decision should be to stick with the elimination format how it is or revert back to the old format, delaying any further changes to 2017. Playing around with it multiple times mid-season is just ridiculous. It should have been sorted out well before the season started, with an extra day of pre-season testing to trial it and check that the proposed format actually worked.
Also, at this point the only decision should be to stick with the elimination format how it is or revert back to the old format, delaying any further changes to 2017. Playing around with it multiple times mid-season is just ridiculous. It should have been sorted out well before the season started, with an extra day of pre-season testing to trial it and check that the proposed format actually worked.
2005 was the last time we had an aggregate system, it was beyond shit. Possibly the worst version of qually ever. it lasted just 6 races before it was axed. I can't help but think that everyone running the sport is a fucking moron.
Not any more!
I don't bother watching Quali anymore- haven't done since '14 really- frees up another couple of hours over a GP weekend.
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