Pirelli 2013 F1 tyre range

[no-FIAt-please]

Mark Hughes

If the Kevlar-belted tyre that Pirelli wished to introduce from Canada but was prevented from doing, is now introduced, it will have the side effect of reducing rear temperatures by around 10-deg C. This will be of enormous help to Mercedes, giving it a much better chance of maintaining its dazzling qualifying form into the races - possibly to such an extent that we may see one or both of the Mercedes drivers coming back at Vettel in the championship.

 

[Fenderman]

My apologies right up front for being a dullard but something has just occurred to me with regard to these so called extreme cambers that seem to be attracting as much preoccupation in the media as the tyre reversal trick.

Answer me this, "Why can't F1 racing tyres be expected to cope with large camber angles?

In reaching ones' conclusion consider the following facts:

• On an F1 car the suspension travel is relatively short and F1 cars in fact rely on the tyres to augment the suspension.
• Track surfaces are not flat. Kerbs are not standardised and vary a great deal from circuit to circuit. Some kerbs have a lot of camber relative to the track, others less but very few if any have none.
• Street circuits, like Monaco and Albert Park have "crowned" roads.
• Circuits like the upcoming Nurburgring have substantial off camber corners.
• F1 cars spend only a fraction of their time driving in a very straight line and even less on a perfectly flat surface.
• G-forces acting on a racing car during cornering are responsible for generating the most heat and stress in the tyre due it being pulled, compressed and flexed laterally. This happens to the tyre regardless of the camber .

Taking the above facts into account, my possibly uneducated assumption is that regardless of the tyre's attitude to the car it's attitude to the road surface must vary considerably over a lap of the average circuit, let alone an exceptional one like Spa for instance. So, to restate my question:

"Why can't F1 racing tyres be expected to cope with large camber angles? ​

 

[Mephistopheles]

The answer to that question Fenderman is that they should be able to, the optimum camber, toe in and tyre pressure is subjective to each team, what works for one will not necessarily work for another, these parameters should be built into the tyre, it's not like one team is running soo much camber and toe in that the car looks like a depressed dachshund....

 

[Fenderman]

My thoughts exactly Mephistopheles .

 

[KekeTheKing]

I thought I heard Red Bull's engineers, team principals and tea-ladies whinging about the tyres once or twice.

To be fair, that happens every week, about any number of issues.

 

[Blog Zbod]

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/pirelli-2013-f1-tyre-range.5900/page-26

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[The Pits]

Fenderman

Camber angles , as opposed to circuit conditions are constant. Circuit conditions, such as crowning, corner camber, gradient etc are events within the lap.

If the contact patch of the tyre on the track is too small, the tyre will overheat, on the shoulder. The circuit events which occur over a lap will alleviate this to a point, but will be fleeting. The crowned roads at Monaco for example, the car will not be in the same position relative to the crown for a whole lap.

Pirelli issue camber advice, which I assume is circuit specific.

In short, I do not disagree with what you are saying about tyre durability, however, up until the last race, the issue people seemed to have with the tyres (de-lamination notwithstanding) was around the degredation. So, looking at information provided before Silverstone, the tyres could handle kerbs, extreme camber and pressures etc. Pirelli took the only action which they were allowed to take to address the de-lamination issues. Silvestone turned up a new phenomenon, which rightly needs to be addressed, agreed, but also which up until Silverstone was not a problem that had been highlighted by anyone.

 

[Brogan]

There are a couple of shots on Darren Heath's site showing the alleged problem kerbs.

Having seen them, I can understand how sidewalls could easily be damaged if a driver was to run over them at exactly the right position.

 

[FB]

In case anyone is too lazy to type the name Darren Heath into a search engine here's a link.

http://www.darrenheath.com/season/2013/great-britain-2013/image-gallery

Silly sods deserve what they get if they don't drive on the track. Didn't John Watson once rip off the engine and gearbox of his McLaren at Monza driving too far over the kerb? Don't recall there being a huge clamor to improve the DFV engine mounts.

 

[Brogan]

Said kerb.

 

[Fenderman]

The Pits - your reply contains the answer to the question I posed but it is somewhat buried. It is actually a very simple question and when I feel I have been entertained thoroughly by members replies I shall post the correct answer with diagrams to fully illustrate the case.

Brogan - Yup a nice shot there. Handy snapper, that Darren geezer. There's no doubting the propensity of the kerbs to lend a hand cutting the sidewalls of the tyres, particularly if the sidewalls are too weak and overheated. Since kerbs like those and the habit of drivers to cross them are known variables then it appears that tyre design and construction is part of the issue along with the teams running them t unacceptably low tyre pressures.

Incidentally, kerb hopping is as old as motor sport so why anyone expects it to go away is a mystery to me

 

[The Pits]

Well Fenderman if you already know the answer, why bother asking the question?

 

[The Pits]

If I may, what Pirelli are most guilty of is being a bit naive in the politics of F1,

 

[Fenderman]

Heh, heh, fair comment The Pits. I thought I'd given enough clues to imply that I would have an answer. As for my reasons for posting the question, they were to a) see if anyone has a different take and b) in the hope of being entertained. There is a "c)" reason but if I state it that might stymie the conversation. Not that I'm unduly concerned about that

Edit: the re. the politics - surprisingly so it seems.

Edit 2: It's just occurred to me that I should have posed another question as well since the word "extreme" can mean anything. So ... "What might Pirelli consider to be an extreme camber angle?"

 

[jez101]

Said kerb.

You can certainly see how the damage could have happened given all the other factors. Those gulleys are deep enough almost to lean on through the corner.

Add that to some wibbly wobbly sidewalls on untested tyres that were running at funny angles, in the wrong direction, at low pressure in hotter than forecast conditions... It's hard to find just one person to blame in that bowl of spaghetti.

 

[The Pits]

Well fenders, I would hazard that at most circuits this year, they could.

 

[sushifiesta]

I can't give any examples, but I'm pretty sure there are kerbs that look worse than that in F1 and we haven't had issues before.

 

[Incubus]

Said kerb.

--------------------------------------------------------------

To be fair that kerb looks like like it would spell big trouble for a saloon road car, never mind a super-heated F1 tyre....

 

[F1Yorkshire]

I'm assuming that image of the kerb is from turn four in the new section. That picture looks like it is facing towards the direction the car came from. You can see it tapering away so cars won't be hitting the slab side pictured but would be actually riding up the angle of the kerb as designed. We really need to see the part of the kerb that the cars make contact with before judging the state of them.
If my post is confusing I'll try add a pic later but won't be home for a while.

 

[jez101]

I think this is the inside or the inside of the kerb. I believe the cars are travelling towards the camera and turning anti clockwise, so the G force is pushing the car towards the left of the screen.

I think what has happened F1Yorkshire is that drivers went beyond the red and white of the kerb and onto the green concrete. A ridge that size (in the green area) would surely hook the wheel into the corner and help prevent the g forces throwing the car left.

I agree that there would be no problem if the cars stayed off the green, but they clearly haven't. The black marks on the kerb would appear to be tyre marks where someone has scuffed their rubber doing just this.