Penalties, parc fermé, and changing set up

[Brogan]

Also the fact that Red Bull were allowed to make setting changes to Sebs car after a penalty in qualifying just leaves a bitter taste..

Everyone has the opportunity to make changes if they are willing to break parc fermé rules and start from the pit lane.
That has always been the case.

 

[Josh]

I thought it was a great race and the fact that RB was allowed to make changes is not worthy of a complaint seeing how this has always been the case and it's slightly hypocritical to start about it now while keeping your mouth shut about the rules earlier.

 

[Hamberg]

You keep saying this Bro as though we should all put up and shut up. Rules exist until situations occur that highlight how fair or enforceable they actually are in which case they are then revised e.g Hamilton qualifying on fumes on Montreal.

This to me is a situation where I believe it now needs to be revised.

 

[Brogan]

And yet you didn't see the need for the rules to change when Charles Pic did it earlier in the season.

In fact, I would wager there isn't a single post about it on the forum.

 

[Hamberg]

No and I've explained why already.

 

[RickD]

Josh - It is not hypocrtical as it doesn't happen very often, I just think after a penalty, whatever car it is starting from the pit-lane should not be able to make set-up changes.

 

[Fenderman]

I would not want to criticise Red Bull for working within the regulations to make such significant changes to their car. I do, however, think it bizarre that everyone who qualified for their respective and rightful places on the grid are not allowed to make those kinds of changes to their cars, yet a team taking a "sent to the back" penalty can. That seems to me to negate or at least diffuse the desired effect of the penalty and to me that makes no sense. It's only the apparent rarity of the situation that has kept the issue lurking under the surface ... until now.

Edited as some posts have popped in whist writing.

By the way, I gave the race an 8

 

[Brogan]

I do think it bizarre that everyone who qualified for their rightful place on the grid are not allowed to make those kinds of changes to their cars.

But they can though.
They would just need to start from the pit lane, just as Vettel did.

To clarify, Vettel was demoted to last on the grid.
It was the decision to break parc ferme rules which forced him to start from the pit lane.

 

[Fenderman]

I see what you are saying Brogan , but then would they not find themselves qeueing up behind the original transgressor?

Edited

 

[F1ang-o]

But they can though.
They would just need to start from the pit lane, just as Vettel did.

To clarify, Vettel was demoted to last on the grid.
It was the decision to break parc ferme rules which forced him to start from the pit lane.

They are definately smart asses at Red Bull....
As the saying goes...'If life gives you lemons...get some Tequilla & salt'....

 

[Brogan]

They would line up in order of who broke the parc ferme rules first Fenderman.

 

[Fenderman]

Precisely!

 

[ramilas1]

They would line up in order of who broke the parc ferme rules first Fenderman.

No real problem with Red Bull bending the rules to their advantage, that's what rules are there for I guess?

....but if they could have re-wound the clock at Ferrari, and had put Massa in breach of parc ferme before Vettel ..... then had him crawl out through the tunnel at 20mph, while blocking Vettel all the way, wouldn't there now be huge calls for a change of rules ? ?

You can only condone (or ignore) rule bending when it doesn't affect the big result, so any analogy with Pic is a bit fatuous, in my opinion!
======================================================================================
BTW, only score 5 or 6 for race, too much wacky racer stuff: ..... not explained by my Polish commentators that I understood
First corner pile up going down as nobody's fault? .... looked like DiResta's to me, bumping Hulk into Senna!
Vettel overtake of Grosjean off track not looked at? .... a couple of replays but stewards turned blind eye!
Both Webber overtake accidents let go? .... Vettel's on Button was same overtake except Vettel took the proper wider line
.... and a couple others that I can't recollect just now!

 

[Brogan]

then had him crawl out through the tunnel at 20mph, while blocking Vettel all the way, wouldn't there now be huge calls for a change of rules ? ?

They could have done that during the race at one of the pit stops.
I'm fairly sure Massa and Ferrari would have been hauled in front of the stewards if they had for unsporting behaviour.

You can only condone (or ignore) rule bending when it doesn't affect the big result, so any analogy with Pic is a bit fatuous, in my opinion!

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
All of the drivers deserve the same respect and treatment when it comes to the rules.
Complaining about something which has been in operation for years just because one of the front runners is involved is hypocritical and smacks of favouritism.

 

[Fenderman]

Hmm. I think it is the extent of the changes that RB are reported to have been made that have brought a spotlight onto the incongruous nature of a rule which can bite any driver, fans favourite or otherwise. As Brogan points out in an earlier post, in order to effect significant changes to their car between qualy and the race anyone else on the grid would need to break Parc Ferme rules. Thus to have the same privilege as the bloke who broke an entirely different rule that led to his relegation to the back of the grid they would find themselves in a queue behind him in pit lane.

For the record, as I acknowledged earlier, Red Bull did not break any rules (other than the fuel issue which may well have been beyond their control - Renault supply the engine after all) and I see no reason to brow beat RB for yet another poorly thought out set of FIA regulations.

 

[Brogan]

This thread has drifted off topic somewhat so I may split the posts off but personally, if I was Red Bull, I would have used a ninth engine for Vettel.
Another 10 place grid drop penalty would have been irrelevant so they missed a trick there I feel.

 

[Fenderman]

That's a good idea. It will be interesting to see if there are other rules that throw up similar circumstances. maybe it could be called something like "When is taking a penalty an advantage?"

 

[Fenderman]

Nicely done Brogan

 

[GeoffP]

Am I missing something? I don't get this "Bending", "Exploiting", "Transgressing" commentary. The rules that RBR followed were the same for every team.

In fact, by being released to start a slow entrance onto turn three after all the cars had cleared turn one could be deemed to be the largest penalty available for a quali fuel breach in the season.

Let's face it, without the demolition derby approach used through the race by other drivers and the very fortunate timing of safety cars and his own stops Vettel would probably have scored diddly in the race, so, despite having possibly the best car, what serious advantage was he given?

So, actually, nope, I don't think I'm missing a thing - I think we've just witnessed "More by luck than judgement" in action, let's not take it personally.

btw, there have been questions raised regarding the relevance of Parc Ferme, however it does make the teams pick that fine line between grid position and race pace, Seb's position got changed, so did his tactics - Cool!

 

[FB]

You also have to ask would Red Bull have preferred Vettel in his grid slot on "qualie" set up or butt last on an unproven, untried race set up. Now let me think...