Penalties, parc fermé, and changing set up

[Brogan]

Just to clarify, Red Bull chose to start Vettel from the pit lane.

The penalty put him to the back of the grid.

 

[FB]

Pit lane, 24th, what ever. Not 2nd or 3rd is it? (can't remember where he qualified ) Well done Red Bull for using the rules to their benefit, if only the other teams were as imaginative - with the obvious exception of Renault getting one of their drivers to smash into a wall.

 

[teabagyokel]

I suppose it shows the difference in operational sanity between Red Bull and McLaren yet again, because Hamilton started from the grid in Barcelona.

Just because others aren't smart enough to take advantage doesn't mean Red Bull should be attacked.

 

[MCLS]

Don't think Hamilton would have finished that much higher in Spain though, might have got 6th or 7th as it's not as easy to overtake in Spain and the drivers were more well behaved and not tripping over each other

 

[teabagyokel]

MCLS - If he was geared better he might have been able to pass in Spain?

 

[KekeTheKing]

I think every team should be able to fiddle with the gears after Qualifying. I have no problem with Red Bull once again playing the hand they're dealt.

You can just add this to the list of McLaren cock-ups this year (The inability to recognize the need for such a change at Barcelona)

 

[siffert_fan]

All of this prattling on about the changes made to the RB, and how ALL teams could profit from having their cars in "race trim" raises an obvious question: do the teams really compromise their cars so much for qualifying that their their race performance is seriously adversely effected? I think it unlikely. Otherwise, it seems to me that some teams would choose to attempt qualifying in "race trim", perhaps accept qualifying in mid-field, then blow the doors off the competition once the race started. I haven't seen that happening, so I can't believe that the differnce between ideal race trim and qualifying trim is as great as some seem to think.

 

[teabagyokel]

siffert_fan - Arguably Ferrari have been attempting it?

 

[Hamberg]

I don't understand why this is being seen as an attack on Red Bull, it just happens to be Red Bull that have taken advantage of the rules (which is not bending/exploiting/cheating) who unlike Pic have a driver that is about to wrap up his third WDC hence the interest in understanding the rule and also analysing its impact - so to keep throwing 'why didn't you care about Pic' as an argument is a little ridiculous.

Also may I add there were pages of discussion around clarifying what the rules actually were by really F1 savvy members, so the argument of - it's always been the rule, again slightly irritating as it's not been a common problem and therefore it's situations like this that highlight whether a rule is fair, enforceable, ambiguous etc and as such does it warrant a revision.

I don't see the current rule when applied after a penalty as hefty as disqualification as any different to getting a stop-go penalty but being able to change your tyres during it.

I believe it should be revised where if you have been disqualified from Quali and then opt to take your car out of parc ferme to essentially 'make the best of a bad situation', the penalty/ies should be applied the next race. Regardless of who you drive for.

Edit: Do I believe the changes made a difference? Look how easily/quickly he got past Grosjean, that wouldn't have happened if he kept the original set up and may have left him off the podium at least

 

[KekeTheKing]

I can't believe that the differnce between ideal race trim and qualifying trim is as great as some seem to think.

Seb went through the speed trap at 311 KPH in Qualifying. Dead last with his teammate.

He went through at 321 KPH during the Grand Prix. 4th fastest of all.

You don't think the extra 10 KPH that RBR were able to add to the car played a big part in his result?

 

[The Pits]

I think the view was that the changes would have been to the detriment of overall lap time, although I am not sure how much, nor how this would have placed him in relation to ultimate pace and the field. The changes would mean, I guess that he would still have a lap time in the top 6, so a points place would have been achievable without the Safety cars (IMHO).

When faced with the situation, it was the right choice to get in to the points.

What is the likelihood of a safety car in Abu Dhabi?

 

[MCLS]

None in 2009 and 2011 with just one in 2010 (I think)

 

[The Pits]

So, at the second safety car, he was 13 seconds behind Button, and the first he negated a pit stop (18 seconds?) in total 31 seconds, putting him out of the points. The calls would likely have been different without the SC periods, but fairly sure he would have been looking at a low points position.

 

[siffert_fan]

Keke

Whaere did I say changing Seb's settings made no difference? They had missed their set-up, both for qualifying and race pace, and took advantage of the situation to make somewhat educated guesses on what the setup should be.

Am I to infer from your posting that you think it is normal for teams to have qualy trim that is 10 kph slower than "ideal race trim"?

 

[Mephistopheles]

Everyone has the opportunity to make changes if they are willing to break parc fermé rules and start from the pit lane.
That has always been the case.

It would be a pretty bum deal is all twenty four cars decided to change to race set up and they all had to start from the pit lane how would they know who to let out first?....

 

[Brogan]

It would in order of when they broke the rules.

Technically speaking though, the pit lane green light can only be illuminated once the last car on the grid has passed the pit lane exit (excluding safety and medical cars) so they could be waiting forever

 

[Mezzer]

siffert_fan Arguably some teams exploit the "DRS is allowed anywhere when in quali" abomination better than others.
FB Re your comment on what setup RB would choose if they could, if they had a setup they knew wouldn't be great for working through the field then why not roll the dice? Paid of nicely methinks.

 

[Vortex]

So, at the second safety car, he was 13 seconds behind Button, and the first he negated a pit stop (18 seconds?) in total 31 seconds, putting him out of the points. The calls would likely have been different without the SC periods, but fairly sure he would have been looking at a low points position.

I don’t fully agree Mr P

Gary Anderson pointed out on the forum that the first safety car did nothing for him. He goes on to say Vettel was 25 seconds behind the leader when the safety car came out, following in the pack he was 9 seconds behind but with the incident and needing to stop he was back into last place and was 23 seconds behind.

According to the last shown timings on the TV on lap 20 (when Vettel got back to 12th position) he was 25.161 seconds behind the leader meaning he gained no time at all, he just lost available laps in which to catch the leaders getting back to where he already had been on laps 9 - 12.

　
So, without the first safety car he would have actually been further up the road and order (12th place from lap 9 instead of lap 20) and then who knows where or what would have happened, but the second SC did allow him to catch Button up gaining him 13 seconds. So id say the safety car gained him 13 seconds not 31, but then again without the first safety car problem he might not have been as far behind Button anyway, but who knows.


Go to 42:20 to see Gary Anderson talking about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01p04qn/Formula_1_2012_The_Abu_Dhabi_Grand_Prix_Forum/

 

[The Pits]

I take the point, I was trying to say that as the pack were moving a lot slower behind the SC, he actually lost less time than he would have stopping in normal race conditions. Taking on board the point that the need for the first stop was created by an issue under the safety car.

 

[Vortex]

Yep, if he didn’t go ramming DRS signs the first SC wouldn’t have done him any harm at all! But then again I hate DRS too.