No Favouritism at McLaren, either!

[cosicave]

The Mclaren is designed to suit Lewis' ragged driving style, which I why I don't think Jenson can quite get the best out of the machinery. The last couple of seasons the cars were designed to minimise Hamilton's tyre wearing problems. I think the way they did it was to have the rear tyres heat up very quickly so that they didn't wear by being cold for long. This suited Lewis' style as he likes the car to thrash around a bit at the back and so the tyres would heat up. However, because Kovalainen has a smooth driving style, he found that the 08 and 09 Mclaren's rear tyres would overheat and so he would, paradoxically, suffer from tyre degradation more than he should have done. Don't hold me to that but I'm pretty sure that was how it went.

This year's car was designed with Lewis' style in mind - Mclaren started it well before the end of last season while Jenson wasn't signed until the design process was well under way. This may partly explain his qualifying woes.

We may see next year's Mclaren being a little more to Button's liking than the MP4-25 (I think that's the chassis anyway )

Hello Boyle!
Actually, I hope you will not mind me pointing out something. I think it is really is VERY relevant. It is a fundamental quality of chassis design:

First, I will presume that you are referring to Hamilton's preference for 'tail-out' oversteer? - Even four-wheel drifting in seasons prior to this? If so, I agree. In this regard, he is quite simply peerless.

Now, rather than going on to make an assumption, can I ask you whether you think 'oversteer' is easier to induce with a shorter wheelbase - or conversely - with a longer one?

Then bear in mind that this year, in 2010, the wheelbase is far longer than it was previously, and, as a matter of interest, I believe this year's McLaren has the longest wheelbase of any car on the grid!

Please draw your own conclusions about whether the car design has gone more towards Hamilton's or Button's 'natural driving style'.

 

[KekeTheKing]

In Canada where tyres were an issue we can see that at no time did Jenson have an edge over Lewis:

1 J. BUTTON____________2 L. HAMILTON

56 1:19.296____________56 1:19.264

57 1:18.872____________57 1:19.420

58 1:18.829____________58 1:19.017

59 1:18.331____________59 1:18.958

60 1:18.313____________60 1:18.456

61 1:18.365____________61 1:18.025

62 1:18.758____________62 1:17.806

63 1:18.214____________63 1:17.989

64 1:18.411____________64 1:18.134

65 1:18.191____________65 1:18.227

66 1:18.144____________66 1:18.492

67 1:18.155____________67 1:18.428

68 1:18.317____________68 1:18.174

69 1:18.526____________69 1:18.809

70 1:19.633____________70 1:20.519

Well done snowy. This is the race I would point to as well to illustrate the point that Hamilton's supposed tire wear problems are more or less a myth, and that any perceived advantage Button held over him in this department was just that, perceived.

After Jenson got by Alonso on Lap 56, we can see that he started lapping faster than Lewis, but Lewis was basically just cruising home at this point. When the gap started becoming a bit tighter, Hamilton threw down a couple laps in the 17's to signal to the Team/Button that there was no point in racing to the finish and they should just bring home the 1-2 nice and easy.

Button has shown that he is better than Hamilton at making strategic calls from the cockpit at this stage in their respective careers, but as far as pure speed goes, I haven't seen any evidence this year to suggest that Jenson can match Lewis on a clear, dry circuit. The difference is pretty small, a lot smaller than many predicted it would be, but until Button beats Hamilton in a dry race on pace alone, I don't see any reason to believe that Jenson is as quick as Lewis under any tire conditions.

I'm not trying to belittle Button or his driving, but the only two times he has beaten Lewis this year was in changeable conditions where Jenson made the perfect strategy calls. He's had great drives from relatively low starting positions and finished only 1 or 2 spots back from Lewis on five occasions, but unless he starts qualifying near Lewis and battling over the same piece of track for a good portion of the race, I will be of the opinion that Hamilton is simply a bit quicker.

To me, that's the reason there is no need to play favorites within the McLaren camp.

 

[cosicave]

…Button has shown that he is better than Hamilton at making strategic calls from the cockpit at this stage in their respective careers, but as far as pure speed goes, I haven't seen any evidence this year to suggest that Jenson can match Lewis on a clear, dry circuit. The difference is pretty small, a lot smaller than many predicted it would be, but until Button beats Hamilton in a dry race on pace alone, I don't see any reason to believe that Jenson is as quick as Lewis under any tire conditions.

I must say, I agree with this. But you know what? - I think Jenson does too!

I think that JB knows the only way he can really beat LH is to out-think him. And when conditions are variable (an important part of the equation), he has been managing to do just that!

- This is the clearest evidence of the validity of any modern-day 'Prost/Senna' comparison, and is really what Damon Hill was alluding to when he made the 'Tortoise and the Hare' remark, prior to the British Grand Prix.

 

[McZiderRed]

Thanks, Snowy and KekeTheKing, for some great info and analysis. It certainly sounds like a reasonable and logical explanation of the current circumstances. And I must say, I also agree with cosicave.

Jenson can out think Lewis, but he does really need to qualify better. It seems the two driver's driving styles complement each other nicely. No need for favouritism yet then, but of course, a lot can happen in the second half of the season, so you never know...

Thanks again, guys!

 

[RickD]

I'm glad I started this topic now as there have been some interesting posts.

cosicave - So, longer wheel base makes the transitions between corners more stable, yet still allows the back end to slide due to the centre of gravity, I would still say this helps Lewis more than Jenson and could well make the difference when it comes to tyre temperatures.

As for speed - If (its all speculation, but i'll go with it as it makes sense due to Lewis being the only driver staying with the team from last year) the car is designed more for Lewis, then I would say Jenson is doing a sterling job and there is a possibility that Jense could be faster than Lewis.

I just wish Jense would get his qualifying sorted, then we'd see some proper racing between them..

 

[MajorDanby]

Yeah I'd agree with the general tone of the argument. I have to had though, that I think this is still a learning curve for Hamilton, and that give him a few more years under his belt, he should be able to think as well as Jenson does. If he keeps his speed he will be a scary man

 

[Brogan]

I'm glad I started this topic now as there have been some interesting posts.

I know my eyes are bad but the last time I checked, McZ started this thread

 

[McZiderRed]

I'm glad I started this topic now as there have been some interesting posts.

I know my eyes are bad but the last time I checked, McZ started this thread

But it is a continuation of the "Favouritism" topic, which was started by RickD's thread No Favouritism at Red Bull Apparently

 

[RickD]

I'm glad I started this topic now as there have been some interesting posts.

I know my eyes are bad but the last time I checked, McZ started this thread

Whoops, there was me thinking it was the other one, I blame the late night trying to get my bloody computer working...

 

[Brogan]

Getting it back on topic (my fault, sorry), I agree it's been an interesting read.

Hockenheim this weekend should show whether McLaren have managed to implement their update successfully and which driver it benefits most, if any.

The weather could play a big part though as if the conditions are different between sessions then the data collected won't be as useful as they won't have a baseline against which to compare.

 

[slickskid]

The weather could play a big part though as if the conditions are different between sessions then the data collected won't be as useful as they won't have a baseline against which to compare.

That really all depends how they intended to run the back to back tests, admittedly if its not dry or there is variable weather it will become more difficult but not beyond the relms of possibility, and there is always the option of having the two cars run on different packages in each friday session to get data that way. Will be lot of work for the mechanics though.

 

[Brogan]

As I understand it slick, that's exactly how they intend to do it.

Both drivers running different packages in P1, swap for P2 and then a final decision as to what to run in P3, Q and the race.

Anyway, that's probably better suited to the general race discussion thread.

I seem to have a habit of taking threads off topic

 

[Speshal]

Can someone please argue against me and tell me why they think I'm wrong, and actually Lewis IS just faster, or 'better' ?? because as much as i expected it pre-season, i don't see it on Sundays.

*ahem*

 

[Feckless]

I've joined this thread a bit late, but here goes.

Looking at the graph of their lap times posted by Brogan has anyone got an explanation why Lewis is SO much slower than Jenson on their pit laps? Did something happen I cannot recollect?

I remember, back-in-the-day when Schumacher was always able to make his pit-stop strategy work by just being right on the pace before and after his stops.

BTW. I should point out that IMO Jenson and Lewis are not equal. Lewis is faster. End of. I know this will get me in trouble but its how I see it........

 

[MajorDanby]

Feckless, I noticed the same thing myself, but neglected to mention it. It confused me as well I must admit. For the life of me I can't remember any particular incidents that would have caused this phenomenon...

Any ideas anyone?

Edit: Thinking about it, the data is from Canada. Lewis' first pit stop was slow, due to a problem with the right rear tyre if I remember? Alonso managed to pass Lewis in the pit lane because of it.

As for the second stop? Can't really remember anything untoward happening, but I guess it was another slightly slower stop from the McLaren mechanics as compared to Jenson's

 

[Brogan]

There's not really that much in it, although for a 5 second pit stop it is a large % difference:

1st Stop
Button - 1:37.274
Hamilton - 1:39.497

2nd Stop
Button - 1:33.736
Hamilton - 1:34.836

So just over 2 seconds for the first stop and 1 second for the second stop.

As MD said though, Lewis did have a problem with his first stop and spun the wheels quite a lot pulling away.

 

[teabagyokel]

It seems that Hamilton has really lost quite some time pitting this year, hasn't he. Remember in Turkey when we were asking if he could come out in front of Webber and he came out behind Vettel?

 

[snowy]

I smell a rat!

 

[teabagyokel]

Maybe Button is just smoother into the pit box!

 

[MCLS]

Hamilton could be a bit 'over eager' on the way in and out of stops................