No Favouritism at McLaren, either!

[cosicave]

Brogan and Danby ask relevant and important questions about Button's qualifying and his use of tyres, respectively.

And the answer is very much, directly under these spot-lights.

Button's highly acclaimed 'smoothness' is a natural driving style, for him. It is how he has learned - throughout his career; and how he has come to maximise his own performance. It is his own, instinctive way of driving a car, much as it was for Damon Hill and, to some extent Alain Prost.

One of the reasons Button tends to experience less 'graining' of his tyres, is the way he gradually heats them up (relative to most of the other drivers). And, as a rule, this helps their longevity. But the down-side of this compromise, is that his natural style does not generate heat quickly. And with today's qualifying format, it is important to be able to get the tyres up to an optimum temperature very quickly.

In a sense then, Button is at a natural disadvantage for qualifying, but can quite reasonably expect to off-set this during the length of a race - at the very least! The reason is that when his tyres are up to temperature, he can string together many very quick laps, with almost metronomic consistency, as a direct result of his ultra-smooth style.

 

[teabagyokel]

Brogan and Danby ask relevant and important questions about Button's qualifying and his use of tyres, respectively.

And the answer is very much, directly under these spot-lights.

Button's highly acclaimed 'smoothness' is a natural driving style, for him. It is how he has learned - throughout his career; and how he has come to maximise his own performance. It is his own, instinctive way of driving a car, much as it was for Damon Hill and, to some extent Alain Prost.

One of the reasons Button tends to experience less 'graining' of his tyres, is the way he gradually heats them up (relative to most of the other drivers). And, as a rule, this helps their longevity. But the down-side of this compromise, is that his natural style does not generate heat quickly. And with today's qualifying format, it is important to be able to get the tyres up to an optimum temperature very quickly.

In a sense then, Button is at a natural disadvantage for qualifying, but can quite reasonably expect to off-set this during the length of a race - at the very least! The reason is that when his tyres are up to temperature, he can string together many very quick laps, with almost metronomic consistency, as a direct result of his ultra-smooth style.

The problem for Button is, of course, that you do need to be good in all sessions to challenge the team-mate he's got, who is excellent, and will highlight any weakness if he's allowed to. Ask Kovalainen!

 

[cosicave]

…The problem for Button is, of course, that you do need to be good in all sessions to challenge the team-mate he's got, who is excellent, and will highlight any weakness if he's allowed to. Ask Kovalainen![/font]

Yes… Absolutely! I agree.

I didn't really want to get into the over-done debate of a direct comparison of these two, but in a thread such as this, I am going to allow myself a moment of weakness:
I believe Hamilton has enough talent to overcome my attempt at an objective assessment of Button (above).
I also believe that Button knows this. There! - That might put the cat amongst the pigeons!

P.S. I am not a 'fan' of any driver, and have no personal axe to grind here. It's just the way I see it.
That said, I must confess a personal interest which would likely show itself as bias, which I think would be unethical.

 

[teabagyokel]

I believe Hamilton has enough talent to overcome my attempt at an objective assessment of Button (above).
I also believe that Button knows this.

I think they all know where they stand in comparison to drivers like Alonso/Hamilton and maybe Vettel in coming years, even if some of them don't want to admit it!

 

[cosicave]

I believe Hamilton has enough talent to overcome my attempt at an objective assessment of Button (above).
I also believe that Button knows this.

I think they all know where they stand in comparison to drivers like Alonso/Hamilton and maybe Vettel in coming years, even if some of them don't want to admit it!

Perhaps. But it is clearer with some than others.

Now, having let my guard down - , I'll come out with another salvo: Button is right up there at the top.

For a subject such as this, I believe it is only relevant to speak of the present and the immediate future, so…
To me, Button's 'clear head' puts him above Alonso and Vettel, even if his car is still lagging behind them.

But we need to remain 'on-topic', so, if you'll excuse me, I'd prefer to say no more on the matter here.

 

[Grizzly]

If this needs to go somewhere else, please remove it, BUT.... I don't understand some peoples 'acceptance', or resigning to the fact that Lewis is faster than Jenson? That's just not true IMO, and there is only perhaps two places this year we have seen them in a position to compare. I think peoples evaluation of Jensons qualifying performance is interesting and probably very close to correct or the truth. However, Jensons in-race pace (which its actually all about IMO) is second to none.

He has set fastest laps, as has Lewis and he has impressed me more than i expected against Lewis i will admit.

There are parts of Lewis' skill set that are unique to him, being able to drive just about anything, flat out, as has been mentioned is one such and also the aforementioned re-overtake move on Jenson is another, but Jensons tyre saving and good decision making are just as valuable, and again almost unique skills. I think in the races, there is nothing between those two drivers and if we get them on the same piece of tarmac at the same time (ie similar qualifying) we will see a very close fought battle.

Can someone please argue against me and tell me why they think I'm wrong, and actually Lewis IS just faster, or 'better' ?? because as much as i expected it pre-season, i don't see it on Sundays.

Credit to you Jenson! even if Lewis is my favourite driver and good job McLaren for not being dragged down by some stupid scandal of driver favouritism!

 

[cosicave]

For what it's worth Grizzly, I'm with you there.

I think if qualifying were not an intrinsic part of the whole thing, the general assessment of Button would be even higher, further reducing or perhaps nullifying any perceived differences between himself and the other guy…

 

[Wee Scot]

...it should benefit Jenson who has aways enjoyed a stable rear end.

I guess any people would say Hamilton prefers the rear end moving about more...

Maybe someone should ask Jessica and Nicole for their opinions...

 

[snowy]

Any comparison of race laps and the drawing of conclusions is as slippery as comparing Friday morning testing times. As it takes no account of being in clear air, stuck behind a slower car(usually MS), catching traffic etc. However if Jenson's smoother driving style gives him an advantage over a race distance the race lap analysis charts paint a clear and concise picture. Lewis's lap times during and at the end of stints are as consistent, as fast if not faster than Jenson's. There is no discrepancy or tell tale drop off in lap time that indicates Lewis losing performance relative to Jenson.

In Canada where tyres were an issue we can see that at no time did Jenson have an edge over Lewis:

1 J. BUTTON____________2 L. HAMILTON

1  12:04:38____________1 12:04:35

2  1:24.132____________2 1:22.636

3  1:23.636____________3 1:22.109

4  1:22.692____________4 1:21.794

5  1:23.981____________5 1:22.302

6  1:37.274 P _________6 1:23.578

7  1:22.277____________7 1:39.497 P 

8  1:21.464____________8 1:23.540

9  1:22.365____________9 1:20.574

10 1:21.317____________10 1:20.273

11 1:19.845____________11 1:20.054

12 1:19.808____________12 1:20.583

13 1:19.907____________13 1:20.455

14 1:20.090____________14 1:20.937

15 1:20.769____________15 1:21.658

16 1:20.839____________16 1:20.566

17 1:20.638____________17 1:20.537

18 1:20.677____________18 1:20.234

19 1:20.453____________19 1:20.452

20 1:20.634____________20 1:20.583

21 1:20.673____________21 1:20.713

22 1:20.746____________22 1:21.117

23 1:20.470____________23 1:20.776

24 1:20.445____________24 1:20.626

25 1:21.184____________25 1:20.665

26 1:20.445____________26 1:34.836 P

27 1:33.736 P_________ 27 1:21.130

28 1:21.493____________28 1:19.161

29 1:20.640____________29 1:20.114

30 1:20.610____________30 1:20.401

31 1:20.241____________31 1:20.198

32 1:20.264____________32 1:20.237

33 1:19.701____________33 1:19.532

34 1:19.835____________34 1:19.787

35 1:19.554____________35 1:19.659

36 1:19.558____________36 1:19.361

37 1:19.021____________37 1:19.208

38 1:19.332____________38 1:18.868

39 1:19.520____________39 1:18.810

40 1:19.263____________40 1:19.512

41 1:19.149____________41 1:19.458

42 1:19.683____________42 1:19.375

43 1:19.089____________43 1:18.923

44 1:18.757____________44 1:19.012

45 1:18.693____________45 1:18.879

46 1:18.903____________46 1:19.344

47 1:19.795____________47 1:18.740

48 1:19.935____________48 1:19.095

49 1:18.734____________49 1:20.175

50 1:19.016____________50 1:19.132

51 1:18.732____________51 1:19.103

52 1:18.839____________52 1:18.996

53 1:18.931____________53 1:19.479

54 1:19.189____________54 1:19.281

55 1:19.498____________55 1:19.306

56 1:19.296____________56 1:19.264

57 1:18.872____________57 1:19.420

58 1:18.829____________58 1:19.017

59 1:18.331____________59 1:18.958

60 1:18.313____________60 1:18.456

61 1:18.365____________61 1:18.025

62 1:18.758____________62 1:17.806

63 1:18.214____________63 1:17.989

64 1:18.411____________64 1:18.134

65 1:18.191____________65 1:18.227

66 1:18.144____________66 1:18.492

67 1:18.155____________67 1:18.428

68 1:18.317____________68 1:18.174

69 1:18.526____________69 1:18.809

70 1:19.633____________70 1:20.519

This picture is repeated at just about every GP this season, Jenson's smooth style doesn't appear to give him any advantage in longevity over Lewis's more creative style.

 

[snowy]

...it should benefit Jenson who has aways enjoyed a stable rear end.

I guess any people would say Hamilton prefers the rear end moving about more...

Maybe someone should ask Jessica and Nicole for their opinions...

Is that what they are calling their race engineers?

 

[teabagyokel]

For a subject such as this, I believe it is only relevant to speak of the present and the immediate future, so…
To me, Button's 'clear head' puts him above Alonso and Vettel, even if his car is still lagging behind them.

I feel I would trust Alonso to drive a car faster than Button if everything is in equilibrium, but in life sometimes you have problems, and I feel Alonso has no mechanism to cope with them.

BUT.... I don't understand some peoples 'acceptance', or resigning to the fact that Lewis is faster than Jenson? That's just not true IMO, and there is only perhaps two places this year we have seen them in a position to compare. I think peoples evaluation of Jensons qualifying performance is interesting and probably very close to correct or the truth. However, Jensons in-race pace (which its actually all about IMO) is second to none.

I'm not stating that Hamilton is faster than anyone (bar Nelsinho Piquet). I feel, however, that the way the system currently works is of great benefit to Hamilton's superior qualifying pace. If you had a 'superpole' system where you did 10-20 laps in succession to qualify for a Grand Prix, I would take Button any day!

So I would agree with your sentiments. Remember, in praising Hamilton I am never trying to slight Button. Both are excellent drivers, both lead the championship from guys in a better car. I feel that Hamilton will probably come out on top. But I would never describe X being faster than Y as a 'fact' (unless Y is Nelsinho Piquet). It is all transitory.

 

[Boyle]

The Mclaren is designed to suit Lewis' ragged driving style, which I why I don't think Jenson can quite get the best out of the machinery. The last couple of seasons the cars were designed to minimise Hamilton's tyre wearing problems. I think the way they did it was to have the rear tyres heat up very quickly so that they didn't wear by being cold for long. This suited Lewis' style as he likes the car to thrash around a bit at the back and so the tyres would heat up. However, because Kovalainen has a smooth driving style, he found that the 08 and 09 Mclaren's rear tyres would overheat and so he would, paradoxically, suffer from tyre degradation more than he should have done. Don't hold me to that but I'm pretty sure that was how it went.

This year's car was designed with Lewis' style in mind - Mclaren started it well before the end of last season while Jenson wasn't signed until the design process was well under way. This may partly explain his qualifying woes.

We may see next year's Mclaren being a little more to Button's liking than the MP4-25 (I think that's the chassis anyway )

 

[Brogan]

Using snowy's data (well, the FIA's data really), here's a line chart of the lap times.

Make of it what you will.

[Click image to view full size]

 

[snowy]

That was quick!

 

[Wee Scot]

...it should benefit Jenson who has aways enjoyed a stable rear end.

I guess any people would say Hamilton prefers the rear end moving about more...

Maybe someone should ask Jessica and Nicole for their opinions...

Is that what they are calling their race engineers?

Actually, those characterizations would seem to fit Jessica and Nicole "to a T" (for thong, perhaps?), since the former has made her living from still photos, while the latter rakes in the cash by shakin' it!

 

[teabagyokel]

You're off topic so hush hush.

COAT!

 

[Wee Scot]

You're off topic so hush hush.

COAT!

Sincere apologies...

(As many Celebrity Girlfriends as Pope Benedict)

 

[fat jez]

Looks to me from that graph as though there's not a huge amount in it!

 

[teabagyokel]

You're off topic so hush hush.

COAT!

Sincere apologies...

(As many Celebrity Girlfriends That We Know Of as Pope Benedict)

Corrected that for you.

 

[Wee Scot]

You're off topic so hush hush.

COAT!

Sincere apologies...

(As many Celebrity Girlfriends That We Know Of as Pope Benedict)

Corrected that for you.

! I'm definitely in the right place...