Mercedes and Ferrari in 'secret' Pirelli tyre tests

Interesting point, if you are free to test a two year old car whenever and where ever you like, when does a 2011 car stop being a 2011 car ??

Sorry, bit off topic I know but, if you can run a classic car as much as you like then I know what I'd do, It would be like the medival axe that's had 5 new heads and 7 new handles.
 
The article in the sporting regs begins by defining testing as meaning a car from the current season or the preceding one. So all the subsequent clauses are subservient to this requirement and thus Ferrari can test a car

Erm not quite. The full text is below. Fenderman is right in this regard due to stability of rules over the past 2.5yrs

2.1 Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year.
 
Now why snowy didn't I think of that?:rolleyes:

Anyway back to the OP. Hembery and the Pirelli legal team should be way more :embarrassed: than I for somehow, in their initial defense, missing the point of this clause in their contract:

"2.3 All SUPPLY AGREEMENTS shall be fully compliant with the PRINCIPLES OF SPORTING EQUALITY, the CONTRACT and the SPORTING REGULATIONS and TECHNICAL REGULATIONS."

Although I suspect they were simply trying it on ...LOL
 
Or Triggers sweeping brush...

Seriously though Pirelli have got a massive headache for next year because the new engines will be putting very different demands on the tyres as the new power units will be delivering a hell of a lot more torque than today's units altering the power curve from high end to low end affecting the tractability and load put onto the tyres, add to this the introduction of ERS I just can't see how they can develop an appropriate tyre without testing them on the new cars, one things for sure a 2011 car isn't going to cut it....
 
I'm sorry if this comes over as aggressive but thats horse poo. Are you really trying to convince me that Merc would be better off having Sam Bird do 3 days testing than Rosberg and Hamilton? Are you really suggesting both drivers won't have learnt more about the care they are driving from prolonged sessions that they can take and use driving in the actual GPs?

You seem very focused on data(do you work at the Mclaren control centre) and complety oblivious to the fact that more time driving the car for the drivers means they'll learn more about how to adapt their driving style too it.

Only just saw your reply to my earlier post so although it's a bit outdated now I'll reply.

I have to say what you have pointed out regarding me focusing on data is quite correct and it made me chuckle when you asked if I work at the McLaren control centre - I'm guessing you're referring to their mission control who would believe it wasn't raining if the radar said so even if Martin Whitmarsh had a brolly over his head. But anyway, I guess my point was primarily focusing on "data gathering" rather than driver influence and I am after all a software engineer by trade so maybe that is influential in my way of thinking.

I do however believe that the majority of testing these days, certainly for the purpose of car development, is largely a data gathering exercise. A lot of the drivers (including Webber who I can notably remember), have recently outlined the fact that their feedback is becoming less and less useful and they simply just drive round at a constant speed and all the sensors do the rest. Teams also do like to sometimes give their most regular reserve/test/simulator driver some running as they are after all the most frequent user of their simulator and so it ensures good correlation. I know Ferrari did this with Pedro de la Rosa and McLaren with Paffett not so long ago.

I still believe contrary to what you have said that if their primary goal was aero validation and development then they would get more out of a test using known tyres and being able to actually put on their own testing equipment, etc, compared to a test where they were primarily if not solely doing work for Pirelli. If the debate was about drivers learning to adapt to the car or improving their own techniques then obviously the Barcelona test would be more useful, although clearly it didn't help Hamilton's braking issues much, but maybe the Barca test was the reason Rosberg won in Monaco - although I quite obviously say this facetiously as drivers of their caliber have relatively little to learn compared to a young driver, that is after all why they are in the number 1 and 2 seats.

To conclude, I'm not arguing that Mercedes gained no advantage whatsoever from running their private test at Barca - quite the opposite, of course they did and some of those areas fall under what you've outlined. But what I was debating was whether for development purposes they would actually have been able to learn more at the young drivers test. The downside is clearly not using their main drivers but effectively everything else would be an advantage compared to their private test. I rest my case but realise you are still entitled to a different opinion.
 
The outcome of this was obvious from the very beginning. Mercedes having their own team and contracted to supply engines to at least two other teams next season placed them in a position of immense power, or put differently left the FIA powerless to do anything that would risk seeing Mercedes walk from the sport. Mercedes main interests go well beyond F1 and they would loose very little by leaving the sport, unlike McLaren, which shows in the penalty handed down in 2007. McLaren is a company that has been built around F1 and the FIA knows it's very existence depends on its involvement in the sport, hence their ability to impose the absurdly excessive fine of $100 million, knowing they're unable to walk away from F1. Corruption is probably too strong a word but the level of unfairness in many FIA decisions is appalling. You can guarantee a penalty like that imposed on McLaren in 2007 would never be directed at Ferrari, Renault or Mercedes simply due to their importance to F1 as engine suppliers.
 
The FIA have never been consistent and treated teams differently.

As a Ferrari fan you should be well aware of that.
Precisely, which is why i singled out Ferrari along with Renault an Mercedes. In fact I mentioned Ferrari first so I couldn't be accused of favoring them.
 
Listening to Max Mosley last night on the F1 Show leaves me in no doubt that the old FIA World Motorsport Council would have had no compunction in throwing the proverbial book at Mercedes. One thing he and his cohorts could not abide was any challenge to their authority and they would have handled it from highly charged political standpoint.

In 2007, McLaren were the FIA contracted supplier of the standardised ECU for the entire grid. They had brought the first Black Briton into F1 who was already bringing a new and rapidly growing following by the time of "Spygate". McLaren's heritage in the sport was and arguably still is second only to that of Ferrari. None of those factors deterred Mosley and his acolytes in their politically charged assault on their nemesis Ron Dennis.

This was the first test of The International Tribunal but something else historic happened yesterday. I may be wrong but as far as I can recall, the FIA's World Motorsport Council never instructed itself to cover its own legal costs and to share equally the legal costs of the proceedings with defendants they found guilty. The International Tribunal, in ordering the FIA to cover its own costs and to share equally the IT's costs with Pirelli and Mercedes sent a message to the FIA that they share responsibility for the cock-up. If anyone can give me an example of that happening under MM's presidency I'd be glad to hear it.
 
Fenderman......Your quite right regarding McLarens importance to F1 but the point I was making is that as a company they cannot afford to walk away from the sport, the FIA know that and it impacted on the severity of the penalty handed down in 2007. Also don't forget detest is a strong word but a word that fairly describes Max Mosley's feelings toward Ron Dennis.
 
Listening to Max Mosley last night on the F1 Show leaves me in no doubt that the old FIA World Motorsport Council would have had no compunction in throwing the proverbial book at Mercedes. One thing he and his cohorts could not abide was any challenge to their authority and they would have handled it from highly charged political standpoint.

The thought of Mad Max with having to deal with this past controversy, could possibly have meant the withdrawl of Mercedes from the sport..........thank god he's gone!!!
 
When asked if he thought Merc had gained an advantage by having the 3 day test Jenson Button said this:

"Both drivers say no. You have to believe them. Otherwise they would be liars. So I believe them."


hmmmmm.
 
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