Mercedes and Ferrari in 'secret' Pirelli tyre tests

[Soumya Banerjee]

The comparison doesnt hold here, because no proof was ever found connecting the other driver, Alonso, to it. Secondly, it was not known whether the entire team was involved. Those involved in the conspiracy, viz. Messrs Briatore and Symonds were banned from future FIA events. Why would, say for instance, the members of the team's telemetry unit banned for something in which they were not involved?? On the other hand, in this case, each and every member of the Mercedes team were complicit in the unlawful action devised by Ross Brawn.
And are you a member of the Mercedes team / the FIA?? If not, what proof do you have to back up your tall claims that Merc have not derived any advantage from the test?? The layman can see full well that the W04's tyre management has improved considerably since their carrying out of their illegal test. They have netted a win and a podium since. And while Monaco and Canada may not be the circuits producing the most tyre deg, there is no doubt that Merc have improved in that regard with respect to others. So your claim is refuted by what we know.
Merc's violation going unpunished would be a signal to each and every team that any contravention of the sporting regs would be met by a mere slap on the wrists. Atleast those involved in Crashgate were penalised by the FIA(irrespective of the later French Court's ruling which annulled the FIA judgement; the fact remains that the sport's governing body did come down hard on those who cheated there). Are you saying that Merc should be let off?? Supposing Ferrari were to be found a few races later doing private illegal testing. Would your reaction then be the same- that supposedly worse violations have gone unpunished, so Ferrari should be let off the hook, just like Merc?? Your anti-Ferrari and anti-RB fanboyism-driven rhetoric makes me feel otherwise....​

 

[racecub]

Soumya Banerjee I feel quite angered by your posts, not on my own behalf, I'm an out and out Lewis fan and I'll take on the chin whatever you throw, I'm used to that. But on behalf of other CTA members whose integrity you cast aspersions on. Had you been on the forum a little longer you would realise that the majority of members giving opinions are capable of being objective, can see beyond their favourite team or driver when considering issues. Also believe me, some people putting the opposing point of view to you are far from Hamilton fans, in fact the exact opposite. And your suggestion that people have formed these views for nationalistic reasons is as bizarre as it is insulting. Mercedes is a German team.
Now, as a hands up Lewis fan, here's how I see it....
Your making an assumption that Mercedes are guilty....lets wait till the tribunal eh.
You say Mercedes gained from the test because they got a win and a pole. They had poles before the test. They had pole at Monaco last year. Pole at Monaco is a huge factor towards getting the win.
You say they didn't go backwards in Canada, yes they did, both cars went backwards. Not by as much as Spain, by about as much as the races before Spain.
If Mercedes get a huge punishment what will the point of that be? They won't win the championship this year anyway and we will all be deprived of spectacle in a year where it's already sadly lacking.
Surely you can see why RBR and Ferrari are throwing in their two pennoth? NO? Ad they aren't exactly the cleanest of teams when it comes to rules.

I could go on...but I'll stop.

I'm a Lewis fan and I want him to do as well as he can. I like to think I'd feel the same about Mercedes if I wasn't. I like Rosberg too. So shoot me down.

 

[Soumya Banerjee]

racecub I am pretty certain that the vast majority of the forum's members are not capable of any thinking that interferes with their fanboyism. Had that been the case, the divergence of opinion on this matter would have been much more...

 

[mjo]

[SIZE=14px On the other hand, in this case, each and every member of the Mercedes team were complicit in the unlawful action devised by Ross Brawn.
[/SIZE]​

Even the receptionist??
What is certain that Brawn didn't "devise" this test - all teams (including Ferrari and Red Bull) were asked to test by Pirelli. Most (as far as we know) refused, apart from Ferrari and Mercedes. Ferrari used their 2011 car, which is deemed to be ok. Mercedes used their 2013 car, which, after asking Charlie Whiting, Pirelli and others, is also deemed to be ok. Now, all of a sudden, Red Bull, after hearing from Vettel after hearing from Rosberg, complain to the FIA about this "illegal" test. The FIA have to be seen to do something, so refer Mercedes and Pirelli to the international tribunal, after one of their key members - Charlie Whiting - gave them the ok to use the 2013 car. Now, this type of testing isn't illegal, as tyre manufacturers have an entitlement of 1000km of testin throughout the season. So it seems that the FIA have cocked up massively, and now they are trying to rectify the situation by prosecuting the two bodies involved in this farce, Mercedes and Pirelli.
But don't worry, never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Mercedes would do whatever any other team would do - take advantage of the situation presented, in the same way as the blown diffusers. or the double diffusers used by Red Bull and Brawn respectively. They had permission to use their 2013 car in the test. So, as far as I'm aware, the only thing they've done wrong is be the victims of a massive FIA cock-up.

The reason why many people are peed off with Red Bull, are, as KekeTheKing so eloquently stated, they keep pushing the boundaries of the rules, and are extremely keen to intimidate others who display a whiff of coming close to the boundaries of the rules, in many situations. So, in other words, they are hypocritical.

As for any benefit Mercedes have supposedly gained from the test, we have to wait until Silverstone. Monaco & Canada have virtually no high speed corners and are unique, which means that tyre wear isn't as pronounced. Paul DiResta did 57 laps on one set of tyres!! So no one can draw conclusions from these two strange GP's.

Ad finally, I think most of us on here aren't partisan, fanatical or blinkered enough to support their teams/drivers to the death. As this site is British, there are more British people who have an allegiance to British teams. However, your interpretation seems to be that all of us are fanatical fanboys when we don't exactly agree with the general consensus. To tarnish the whole of CTA with the brush of being delusional "fanboys" is, quite frankly, mean-spirited and harsh.

 

[mjo]

racecub I am pretty certain that the vast majority of the forum's members are not capable of any thinking that interferes with their fanboyism.

That is incredibly insulting, or maybe it refers to your blinkered dislike of British drivers/teams, as confirmed in the favourite/least favourite thread?

 

[Brogan]

Indeed.

Soumya Banerjee, I suggest you tone it down.
Your comments in the other thread have already shown you for the racist you are so either read the rules and comply with them or go elsewhere.

That's not a request.

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

The whole McLaren team was punished harshly for the actions of one employee (& a Ferrari employee).

 

[F1ang-o]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108052
Pirelli wants help in the future

 

[The Artist.....]

Soumya Banerjee

The reason that people are having a go at Red Bull is that they are taking every opportunity to stick the knife in, and seem to be trying their best to ensure that Mercedes are thrown out of F1. This is not sporting behaviour - it is not 'British'... This has nothing to do with "fanboyism", as you suggest - I don't think anyone on here really has any appetite for Mercedes being thrown out of F1, or even punished that harshly. The fact that Helmut Marko keeps being quoted in the newspapers almost calling for Mercedes' head speaks volumes. Look at the balanced view; JB has come out and said that he wouldn't want or expect Mercedes to be punished....

In the last 10 years, there are 2 teams that have pushed the boundaries of acceptable behaviour more than any other; Ferrari and Red Bull - with flexi floors (Banned), flexi wings (Banned, but still happening), blown diffusers (arguably movable aero devices) - the list is endless...

 

[Bill Boddy]

But RBR and Ferrari were not the only teams to use these and arguably not always the first ones. There will always be designs which are on the edge when the prizes are so high and the margins so small.

If Mercedes are found guilty then they should stop using whatever has been developed from their illegal knowledge and they should lose the team (not driver) points from the races where the knowledge was used.

 

[Brogan]

It seems fairly black and white to me; Mercedes broke the rules concerning in season testing and therefore should be punished.
It is irrelevant who said what to whom; the rules are quite explicit in that regard.
Brawn should have contacted the FIA directly to clarify it.

I have no idea what the punishment should be for that; I suspect the FIA never expected it to happen.

As for stopping using any knowledge gained... "what has been learned can't be unlearned".
Who's to say this isn't the route Mercedes would have taken anyway?
You might as well tell Mercedes to go back to the car as it was prior to the test and forbid them from any future development as it will be impossible to prove either way whether what they do from now on has anything to do with any data they collected.

 

[sushifiesta]

they should stop using whatever has been developed from their illegal knowledge

I guess all the teams are going to have to race without tyres then!

Brogan It's not clear to me that they have broken the in-season testing rules as it was a Pirelli test not a Mercedes test.

 

[Brogan]

Mercedes did not comply with the strict requirements for the test.

Mercedes are at fault.

 

[sushifiesta]

Brogan I think it depends what news stories you decide to believe, there's a few conflicting arguments around. From everything I've seen I draw the conclusion that what went wrong is that the FIA somehow weren't completely aware of what was happening and that Pirelli may not have asked everyone if they were interested in a test, although we know they did ask the two teams who are the most vocal with their complaints.

I've seen comments at least somewhere to say that everything else (using a current car and drivers etc.) isn't an issue.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Soumya Banerjee the way I prefer to look at it, for the moment anyway, is that Mercedes haven't been shown to have made a 'blatant' or any other kind of violation of sporting regs yet, so I would be careful about pre-judging them until the results of the hearing are known. A lot of people seem to have already found them guilty based on nothing more than external appearances and rumour.

Ross Brawn seems confident that the information he will present to the hearing will make things a lot clearer; until then, we would all (Christian Horner and Luca di Montezemolo included) do well to remain somewhat calmer and less accusatory. If on June 20th Mercedes are found guilty of having broken the testing rules for their own gain, then they should of course expect no sympathy.

 

[Josh]

While I understand the RB bashing (or maybe I'm just used to it by now) none of the top teams are clean, have ever been clean or will ever be clean, and every one of them would instantly call out a competitor on something (they suspect is) illegal - so unless everyone here is planning on getting their panties in a bunch whenever a top team calls out a competitor on something illegal it's just a waste of energy and pretty obviously biased for some reason. Or at least that's the way it can come across to a newish and/or not so active member.

And if it is just because RB is hypocritical: the entire F1 world is hypocritical so if you despise RB for being hypocritical why don't you despise the very sport everyone here loves?
I mean seriously, it's okay to dislike a team, and it comes naturally when a team is dominating and making it less enjoyable, but they're just playing the game, like pretty much every other team, they just happen to be better at it than everyone else.

mjo - Lotus has said that they have not had an invitation from Pirelli to test.

 

[Dizzi]

A lot of harm can be done with speculation, until more details come out (if ever) I for one am going to not assume guilt or innocence.
I don't see how it can have been a 'secret' test - surely the FIA would have needed to authorise the circuit being used & the appropriate safety measures implemented for a test of this kind. Whether it was a legal test is another thing, doesn't anyone learn that asking Charlie Whiting if something is okay is as reliable as a guarantee from Del Boy??
As for Red Bull and Ferrari being the complainants well it stands to reason. They have the most to lose from Mercedes perceived gain, probably annoyed they've missed a trick & other big teams are too linked to Merecedes to rock the boat.
I can't help thinking pot & kettle when Red Bull & Ferrari complain. I remember the pictures of Red Bull's front wing flexing down scraping the floor giving a huge advantage yet nothing was done so how they can moan about this..... If a rule is broken it is broken and shouldn't go unpunished, however there is definitely a "some teams are more equal than others" attitude in the FIA's handling of things & Red Bull didn't seem to mind bending the rules (literally!) with the front wings.

p.s. I'm by no means a fanboy or stupid (that was so insulting) & actively support one of the red bull drivers yet I don't like the way they've conducted themselves over this.
I'll shut up now!

 

[racecub]

Very hard to disagree with what Hembrey says in this interview.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108052
If the FIA don't watch their step they may not have a tyre supplier next year.

 

[Slyboogy]

In the last 10 years, there are 2 teams that have pushed the boundaries of acceptable behaviour more than any other; Ferrari and Red Bull - with flexi floors (Banned), flexi wings (Banned, but still happening), blown diffusers (arguably movable aero devices) - the list is endless...

I don't really want to get into this argument.

But the above you have stated, is a lot less worse than getting 1000km testing with the current car, with current and next years tyres, as those are loopholes rather than anything else.

 

[Jen]

If the FIA don't watch their step they may not have a tyre supplier next year.

I suspect that is what Pirelli are relying on. Bluff, double bluff, counter bluff and so forth and so on.