Meanwhile, on another planet...

I still think that the rules should restrict the front wings to being no wider than the inside wall of the tire. They are complete eyesores now. I would also limit them to 2 elements--one fixed and with a mandated chord, and with a second, adjustable-incidence element, also with the chord given a max dimension, which would allow the downforce to be fine-tuned at each circuit. The rear wing should be subject to similar limts. And NO form of traction control shouild be allowed.

That way, we might actually see some OVERSTEER! To see how wonderful that would be, go to YouTube and view the 1970 Monaco GP. Master drivers, indeed!

Disagree. I think small-sized (and high) front wings were the main causes for the fronts being washed out when following a car closely in high-speed corners pre-2009. Notice how much that improved since 2009 and the introduction of the oversized - and I concur, aesthetically quite unpleasant - front wings. Now they generate so much downforce that they are able to keep the car on the ideal line in the wake of another car with the same speed.

Of course, smaller diffusers introduced for 2009 may also play their part in this via smaller upwash, but I think the two concepts work in tandem essentially.

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As for the restarts, I'd just introduce double-file rolling restarts. They might not provide as much scope for gaining positions as a standing start, but certainly more than a single-file rolling restart and I always hated the discrepancy F1 has with the start being a standing start (the wildest) and the restarts being single-file rolling starts (the most conservative).
 
Disagree. I think small-sized (and high) front wings were the main causes for the fronts being washed out when following a car closely in high-speed corners pre-2009. Notice how much that improved since 2009 and the introduction of the oversized - and I concur, aesthetically quite unpleasant - front wings. Now they generate so much downforce that they are able to keep the car on the ideal line in the wake of another car with the same speed.

Of course, smaller diffusers introduced for 2009 may also play their part in this via smaller upwash, but I think the two concepts work in tandem essentially.
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As for the restarts, I'd just introduce double-file rolling restarts. They might not provide as much scope for gaining positions as a standing start, but certainly more than a single-file rolling restart and I always hated the discrepancy F1 has with the start being a standing start (the wildest) and the restarts being single-file rolling starts (the most conservative).

Got to agree you'd be amazed how something as simple as the End Plate on the front wing does so much.

In the fact when it pushes the air off the plate, what they are trying to do is connect this air with the displaced air formed at the front of the rotating tyre & then link this with the low pressure on the oppersite side of the tyre (the bit in front of the side pod) so it combines to try and push the air as effectively as possible around the rotating tyre....catching my breath....

All this fascinates me the most about F1, & who then works out how many verticle end plates are used, how this interacts with where the car is in the race (up front, mid pack, at the back etc), side winds, the car potentially in front of them, assuming a Williams will push different air to a Red Bull when followed, etc, etc.
 
My apologies for having to disagree with regard to wider front wings but a couple of things ...

The higher, wider front wings and narrower rear wings were introduced in 2009 in order to further inhibit the teams in their never-ending search for aerodynamic downforce, and with the explicit intention of slowing cornering speeds - ostensibly for safety reasons (pish and tosh) . Extending the width of the front wing to the outer edges of the tyres was a compromise to compensate for the concurrently stipulated increase of the minimum height from the ground. Consequently the larger and higher front wings were in fact more vulnerable to being stalled by the wake of car ahead. In terms of the cars running closer together the difference wasn't necessarily that marked and was mostly to do with the smaller rear wings creating a weaker and perhaps less disturbed wake behind the car.

The really significant improvement enabling a car to run closer to the one ahead was the development of the double diffuser pioneered by Brawn. The DD significantly increased ground effect conferred by the aerodynamic characteristics of the undertray thereby compensating for the loss of aerodynamic downforce. Although the double diffuser was later banned, the teams - most notably Red Bull Racing - were able to compensate for that by introducing hot blowing of the rear diffuser. In addition, Red Bull found a trick by making the front wing flexible by clever cross laying of the carbon fibre weave. This meant that the wing could pass the FIA deflection tests which only tested vertical deflection, because the flexing was actually a lateral "twist". The key fact there is that the leading edge of Red Bull's wing was able to twist down closer to the deck at speed below the stipulated minimum height, thus compensating for some of the aero' losses in other areas. At the same time Adrian Newey's brilliant and beautiful sculpting of the "coke bottle" and tight packaging of the engine regained some downforce that had been lost due to the stipulation of the narrower rear wing.

In other words, whilst Brawn lost their advantage as other teams caught up toward the end of 2009 and then, in its reincarnation as Mercedes, lost their DD altogether for 2010 (as did everybody else), Red Bull stole the march to become the dominant force. Another innovation was of course McLaren's "F-Duct" which helped them play catch up to Red Bull, as did Ferrari with their version to make the end of 2010 a tighter battle. Of course the FIA couldn't take this lying down and along cam DRS and KERS and the impending death of V8's in F1.

The new formula for 2014 on seems to be working out quite well. Okay, we have the usual pattern of a one team domination, this time Mercedes, but the cars are running much closer together, often in packs, with mechanical grip and torque playing a more important role in the handling and pace of the cars this season. The emphasis has shifted a little away from aerodynamic downforce and ground effect and toward mechanical grip, efficiency of the power units and braking.

It's turning out to be a very different challenge, particularly for the engineers and the drivers. Yes we may say with some degree of certainty where the titles are headed. Yes we had a scare when a couple of dud races made it look for a while like the season was going to settle into a processional walkover ...

... yeah, but no, but ... watching what is going on throughout he field now is a lot more interesting than it's been for quite some time. Mercedes may well be in command of the season as whole but the others are improving and the return from the summer break sometimes throws up more surprises.

I think I've said this before but it doesn't hurt to say it again ... if something isn't broken, then don't fix it. Let's have the inquest at the end of the season when all the facts are in. Maybe then we won't **** it up for a change.
 
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It appears to me that DRS is playing less of a role in overtakes this season. Watching the cars on the main straight at Hungary (though granted that was in part due to the nature of the track), with the DRS open, it didn't greatly increase the rate at which cars closed up on each other. With the various boosts provided by the ERs systems, at the end of the season, could we now please, please consign DRS to the dustbin of motorsport history along with the mid-90's cockpit and mid mounted X wing type extensions, never, ever, ever to be seen again.
 
The end plate on the Mercedes isn't particularly good then, since losing it didn't slow Lewis down at Hockenheim. :twisted:
Oh I know it didn't seem to slow Lewis down and we've seen in some Grand Prix bit's falling off front wings and teams choose not to change them in pit stops as the effect is not greater than the time it would take to change the front end. Just it was more the fascination in how someone thinks these things up and then translates that by sculpting these pieces of Art.
 
It's not the first time that disappering endplates don't seem to effect the pace a lot. I remember that in Brazil 2012 Vettel also had lost some of his aerodynamic parts and still was able to make good progress.
Makes you wonder what they actually do :s
 
It's not the first time that disappering endplates don't seem to effect the pace a lot. I remember that in Brazil 2012 Vettel also had lost some of his aerodynamic parts and still was able to make good progress.
Makes you wonder what they actually do :s
I'm sure they do something or else they wouldn't be there, but with that has happened over recent races, could we see a car like circa 1982 where they start to remove parts off a car, e.g. end plates like they did with the whole wing assembly in 1982?
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No, because then you had ground effect, which is not available now.
Although I've read that today's cars have more downforce then those cars.
 
No, because then you had ground effect, which is not available now.
Although I've read that today's cars have more downforce then those cars.
Could you imagine today's F1 car with the ground effects included too, corner on rails, what do you reckon they could reduce lap times by?
 
Could you imagine today's F1 car with the ground effects included too, corner on rails, what do you reckon they could reduce lap times by?
Probably knock out the driver in the turns, due to the excessive G-forces.

Edit: oh, so basically what FB already said:ermmm:
 
My apologies for having to disagree with regard to wider front wings but a couple of things ...

The higher, wider front wings and narrower rear wings were introduced in 2009 in order to further inhibit the teams in their never-ending search for aerodynamic downforce, and with the explicit intention of slowing cornering speeds - ostensibly for safety reasons (pish and tosh) . Extending the width of the front wing to the outer edges of the tyres was a compromise to compensate for the concurrently stipulated increase of the minimum height from the ground. Consequently the larger and higher front wings were in fact more vulnerable to being stalled by the wake of car ahead. In terms of the cars running closer together the difference wasn't necessarily that marked and was mostly to do with the smaller rear wings creating a weaker and perhaps less disturbed wake behind the car.

The really significant improvement enabling a car to run closer to the one ahead was the development of the double diffuser pioneered by Brawn. The DD significantly increased ground effect conferred by the aerodynamic characteristics of the undertray thereby compensating for the loss of aerodynamic downforce.

As far as I know, drivers found the non-diffuser cars the most difficult to follow in 2009. The double diffusor was in fact a great tool to promote close racing: it produces downforce in a more efficient way (better downforce-to-drag ratio), which also reduces the turbulence in the wake of the car. Yet, even despite the introduction of KERS, it didn't really help overtaking.
I think the explanation for this is that the smaller rear wing in fact increased turbulence, as the teams had to compensate for the loss in downforce by increasing the angle of attack, which increases turbulence. So I think most of the 2009 rule changes were pretty bad.
 
If they were to allow all of the various developments into F1 cars, ground effect, unlimited boost turbos, active suspension, mass dampers, traction control etc, etc, drivers would probably have to wear G suits.
Probably knock out the driver in the turns, due to the excessive G-forces.

Edit: oh, so basically what FB already said:ermmm:
So if we had all that FB said and the G-Suits too, would they be able to get into the car?
 
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