Horner Defends & Explains RBR's Team Orders During The British Grand Prix

[ExtremeNinja]

RBR are faster than the other cars even without Off throttle blowing
<snip>
Why this particular weekend?

These are all good questions but don't presume to know the answers. Mark Webber has told us himself he has struggled with the tyres, something he now has his head around. He is also quick round Silverstone anyway. He won last year. Perhaps differing driving styles lend them selves in different ways to the advantages of the EBD. There are a number of possible reasons for the levelling of performance. Yours is possibly the most fantastical.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Wise words TN23

Nothing is done to slow Webber down, Seb is naturally a little faster and is undoubtedly now the no1

However my point that seems unpalatable to many is that Seb is not half a second faster than Webber as we have seen in Q3 when Off throttle blowing has been allowed. my theory is that with OTB it is easy for the Renault engine to be used in ways that allow near 100% blowing through the whole lap at the cost of fuel and wear and tear

So to avoid your no 2 driver taking out the number 1 why not have the number 1 open his OTB capability to 90% and the number 2 to 70%, but only in Q3 and a couple of times in the race, like opening lap, around pit stops or if under pressure

We have seen Seb make mistakes in Q3 and still be 1/2 a second ahead of his team-mate, we have seen Webber close to Seb in most Q1,Q2 sessions and most laps of the races

All Im saying is in Q3, and a few laps in the race Seb was 1/2 second faster just like that

There is no way Webber is all of a sudden matching him in Q3 and in the race, and its a coincidence that all OTB is banned this weekend

Seb and Webber crashed together last year, Sebs car suddenly got much faster and Webber didn't understand the message, this hasn't happened this year

I am not saying RBR want Webber to run behind the competition, He is now second and should always have been but for legions of bad luck

 

[TN23]

Wise words TN23

<snip>
I am not saying RBR want Webber to run behind the competition, He is now second and should always have been but for legions of bad luck

Sorry, I'm really not convinced there's anything going on to limit one driver's performance, or extend another's at Red Bull comparatively. It's down to driving styles- how well can a driver exploit the blown-diffuser performance and make the tyres last whilst doing reasonable times (In qualifying, it is getting the tyres to their optimal temperature for most grip), which driver is suited to the car and maximum exploitation of one's natural talent.

In all these areas, Vettel is coming off best. Here lies the answer (hopefully!) not some terrible conspiracy.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The money that comes from FOM is distributed according to the positions in the WCC, there is no extra for the WDC. This is a major form of funding for the teams. Why would any team principal risk losing money by purposely disadvantaging one of his drivers?

No one is disadvantaging anyone

The Red Bull car is faster than the rest, Webber is second and should have been all along, it was bad luck that stopped this, remember him driving through the field to finish on the podium?

All I am saying is that Seb had a Q3 advantage and for a few laps each race that is consistant with a limited use boost such as maximum exhaust blowing. This is very easy to vary on each engine map.

Why would RBR give Seb a slight advantage in Q3 and a few times a race?

Because Webber would do what he did today, leading to unwanted team orders, allowing Seb to turn maximum off-throttle blowing through a whole lap would eliminate the need for team orders

Unless of course all off-throttle blowing were banned for a race

 

[TN23]

No one is disadvantaging anyone

The Red Bull car is faster than the rest, Webber is second and should have been all along, it was bad luck that stopped this, remember him driving through the field to finish on the podium?

All I am saying is that Seb had a Q3 advantage and for a few laps each race that is consistant with a limited use boost such as maximum exhaust blowing. This is very easy to vary on each engine map.

Why would RBR give Seb a slight advantage in Q3 and a few times a race?

Because Webber would do what he did today, leading to unwanted team orders, allowing Seb to turn maximum off-throttle blowing through a whole lap would eliminate the need for team orders

Unless of course all off-throttle blowing were banned for a race

Sorry, just sounds rather far-fetched to me.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Anyway its all academic as both WDC and WCC are pretty much decided

The faster Red bull driver will win it anyway - Seb

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

RBR are faster than the other cars even without Off throttle blowing

Only at two or three races out of nine races were both faster. So, no, you're technically and factually incorrect. Especially in race trim. Hamilton was faster than one RBR in Australia, both of them in China, nearly both of them in Spain. Alonso similarly so in Monaco, England, Valencia. Button in Monaco, Canada.

Seb is faster than Webber ... / ... RBR obviously do not want their two cars squabbling on track leading to crashes as is possible with two drivers both wanting to win ... / ... Seb has proven to be faster

Yes ... / ... Yes ... / ... and Yes

Which is better for the public?

The public want to see close racing with the top drivers fighting on track...but they know that Team Orders have been part of the fabric of the sport's history - as long as it's not way too early in the year or way too early in the race and they know that teams want to especially avoid an intra-squad tangle.

How can we test this theory?

Let's see what happens when neither driver is able to create variable downforce, like this weekend

How do you explain Spain (Pole for Webber) and Valencia (where Webber was very close until a mechanical issue)? Webber was certainly not technically at a disadvantage in China. One more lap and he would have sailed by Vettel.

Still with me?

I'm reading...but i'm not agreeing with the crux of your theory about technically disadvantaging your car if you can financially afford not to. Cheers, mate!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

CFS...

...How do you explain this: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/809/ ?

It's alluded to by Horner in the link in the OP at the top of this thread where he says a couple of years ago it was a similar situation in Turkey but with Webber ahead of Vettel in 2nd and 3rd. The differential was similiar. And Vettel was told not to risk a tangle with Webber. [Vettel was ahead of Webber in the WDC going into that race.]

Horner:

"It happened a couple of years ago in Turkey when exactly the same thing happened with Sebastian, so it makes no sense from a team point of view to risk both of your cars. It was obvious that neither was going to concede."

 

[Brogan]

After last year’s Brazilian Grand Prix, Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz articulated his philosophy of why his drivers would be allowed to race each other right to the end and the team would not intervene, “Let the two drivers race and what will be will be,” he said. “If Alonso wins we will have been unlucky. I predict a Hollywood ending. Worst case scenario we don’t become champion? We’ll do it next year.
“But our philosophy stays the same because this is sport and it must remain sport. We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari do.”

Just more Red Bullshit.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/07/red-bull-let-the-drivers-race-or-do-they/

 

[cider_and_toast]

Oh come on, If Mark had have come screeming up to the back of Seb on Lap 15 or Lap 25 it wouldn't have been a problem but you've got two guys who, when needs must, race the wheels off the cars and lets face it, Mark while enjoying the opportunity to be in a top car, isn't exactly relishing life at the moment so the chances are that there would have been an interesting coming together in those closing laps of the race. We have already seen in races past that Mark and Seb give each other no quarter when it comes to getting past each other. We've seen this dozens and dozens of times before (Hamilton / Alonso Monaco 2007 for example!). Teams giving it "OK lads you've had your fun, time to calm down and bring it on home" is nothing new.

In my opinion I would say that Mark is less and less likely to be at RBR next season. The point was raised on the 5-Live checkered flag pod cast saying that when Mark was asked about his future next season he said that he was in no rush to tie up a contract and that he would think a bit first. Anthony Davidson pointed out that he had a chance of another year in the best car on the grid so what was to think about?

 

[sportsman]

Straight forward business decision by Horner.OK lads you've had you chances.Lets not any risks and settle for the points.
As an employer had I been in Horners position I would have issued exactly the same instructions.

 

[tranquility2k9]

I think the most interesting thing that comes out of all of this is that last season when Vettel was behind Webber for the majority of the season, with how close the championship was, there were certain points when it would have been sensible and almost forgivable for the team to label Mark as number 1 and do everything to help him win the WDC against Alonso and Hamilton. They didn't and let Vettel fight mark fairly, saying they want to let there drivers race. One of their arguments was that Vettel had been awfully unlucky during the season and therefore they thought they owed it him.

This season Webber is behind Vettel, but this time, Vettel doesn't have close competition as Webber did, so there is less to worry about in that arena. On top of that Webber has had all the bad luck this season if there has been any about and it's only half way through the season. Taking all of this into consideration you'd have thought they would just let them race, but by making Webber keep position, they quite obviously favour Vettel hugely and he is their number 1.

It all reminds me of the Schumacher days when he'd be miles ahead in the championship yet still get team orders to help him wherever possible. All stinks a bit on Red Bull's part. I'm not even sure Ferrari would have pulled that one, had Alonso and Massa been on the same points as Vettel and Webber.

 

[Brogan]

Team orders are fine (if you like that sort of thing), it's just the lying that pisses a lot of people off.

Red Bull have had a clear number 1 driver for some time. They just persist with this ridiculous stance that both drivers have an equal chance of competing against each other, when quite clearly they don't.

 

[dave]

Well I don't like it Bro but I would've done the same thing if i was in Horners position and equally I would've done the same thing if I was Webber being told not to overtake.

In regards to the lying, I think it might be just to help get a driver if Webber leaves. I suspcect it's easier to get a driver if you make them think they are going to be equal in the team even if they're not even close.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well I don't like it Bro but I would've done the same thing if i was in Horners position and equally I would've done the same thing if I was Webber being told not to overtake.

In regards to the lying, I think it might be just to help get a driver if Webber leaves. I suspcect it's easier to get a driver if you make them think they are going to be equal in the team even if they're not even close.

That doesn't work if you are rubbish at lying, obviously hypocritical and take people for fools.

 

[dave]

That doesn't work if you are rubbish at lying, obviously hypocritical and take people for fools.

I didn't say anything about it working

 

[Brogan]

As Webber was consistently faster for the last stint, perhaps it should have been Vettel who was given the team orders?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I would have liked to have heard "Sebastian, Mark is faster than you. Can you confirm that you have understood that message?"

 

[cider_and_toast]

Looking at the graph it would seem that Webber did indeed ignore the "team order" in the last few laps. Red Bull claim it was given with 4 to go and you can clearly see that Webber increases his speed relative to Seb on lap 49 and remains quicker than Seb for the final 3 laps.

 

[Brogan]

Look at it another way.

There's no doubt Vettel is going to win the WDC, barring some sort of cataclysmic disaster.
So surely it would have been better from a team perspective for Mark to have the extra 7 points, thereby increasing his hold over P2 in the championship.

Surely Red Bull would prefer a 1-2 in the WDC, rather than just a 1-3?