Horner Defends & Explains RBR's Team Orders During The British Grand Prix

[RayInTorontoCanada]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93028

Seems like Horner's bottom line was not risking 33 points with 3 laps to go. He says the instruction came with about 4 laps to go and that neither driver was interested in giving way.

Horner says they're 1 and 2 in the WDC after today and they didn't want/don't want to risk that or their WCC points.

Horner says Webber took Pole and had a chance to win the GP...and he'll continue having the chance of taking Poles and winning Grand Prix races in future...but that the two will have a talk in "private".

My own opinion is that it was correct for Webber to push Vettel as long as he didn't risk a tangle. My own opinion is that it was right to call orders...but perhaps they should have given a later cut-off, i.e. the last lap as the lap for the Orders to come into effect.

Webber's done well since Spain (inclusive) after having a tough time adapting to Pirellis but it's good for both RBR and Vettel that Webber's come alive. Webber needs to remain motivated to take points off a resurgent Ferrari team and from the McLaren drivers...and to keep Vettel sharp and on his toes.

 

[Brogan]

Why would 33 points be risked if they swapped positions?
The team would still accrue 33 points.

Load of hogwash, as usual.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Why would 33 points be risked if they swapped positions?

...because Vettel simply wasn't going to move over...and Webber was interested in more points and in beating Vettel. The two RBR drivers were "racing" on lap 50, 51. I don't know if they were "racing" on lap 52...but they sure weren't interested in backing off. Neither was going to back off...so there was the possibility of a tangle.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Neither was going to back off...so there was the possibility of a tangle.

Thats called racing and is what 100,000 (almost all, not me) paid to see

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I'm thinking of a word... Begins with F and ends in avourtism.

 

[FB]

Last year, in Germany, team orders were used and there was understandable uproar as they were explicitly banned by the FIA. This year they're not and Red Bull made the call they thought best for the team. Of course Webber didn't like it, he's a racing driver but in the end he made his point as he proved he probably could have passed Vettel, although having heard the team orders perhaps Sebastian thought Webber wouldn't push him so wasn't trying 100%.

Anyway, it's happened and us getting all vexed about it isn't going to change anything. At least Webber now knows exactly where he stands in the team and can call at the end of the season if he wants to carry on as No. 2 at Red Bull.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I cant help thinking that it cannot all be a big coincidence that Webber is suddenly as close to Seb as he was the most of last year.

If the team are willing to use team orders to help Vettel, then they would favour him in other less visible ways also

Supposing off throttle exhaust blowing was allowed, the Renaults butterfly openings are more progressive than the more 'on or off' barrel opening, it could be possible to have the diffuser blowing 100% throughout the lap. Obviously very expensive on fuel, but you could over fuel these cars

Imagine been able to have a driver generating downforce from the exhausts constantly for a whole lap, whether changing down, on the brakes, max blowing. Say the normal setting was 60%, you could overfuel allowing the driver to do 100% a few times a race

not sure this isnt going off topic, but the last time I suggested this I got shot down in flames for suggesting RBR would do any such thing and that it was potentially libellous

I dont mind starting a thread again about this

 

[FB]

Not that it's potentially libelous Cookin, just complete crap.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Yes I am speculating FB

But you gotta admit I have even more of a case now than before

RBR called Webber off
RBR have given Seb a wing from Webbers car before

Seb didn't have a Q3 half second gap on his teammate
Seb was matched with Webber on pace

Seb is faster and more clinically efficient than Webber, but the previous gap was not merely 'Webber getting use to tyres'

RBR special magic for Seb was not there today, instead of been serenely clear if Webber the poor chap had to mix it a little

Let's see if the OTEBD is allowed back next race, we might find the status quo at RBR resumes and Horner will no longer need to watch the wild Aussie, Seb will turn up the boost burn more fuel and disappear 1/2 a second ahead

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Not that it's potentially libelous Cookin, just complete crap.

It's complete crap. The implication is that - in a tight, furious battle for ever-fluctuating race positions between themselves, Ferrari and McLaren - that RBR would purposely want to lose out on Webber's car by somehow slowing him. That is utterly a silly suggestion!

RBR invest a ton of money and want every point they can get. It was only 3, 4 years ago that they were finishing 7th in the WCC!

 

[Quintessentially]

I don't see what the fuss is about and to be honest Horner owes no one an explanation seeing as the rules now effectively allow team orders. Had the instruction been given half way through the race as opposed to the end, I would understand the uproar. In this case it wasn't. I also mentioned earlier that Webber looked quite clumsy and rugged behind Vettel towards the end and you could sense the sternness in Horness voice when he asked him to maintain the gap. It could've been terminal and RedBull would've once again been the laughing stock in the paddock. Look at Hamilton and Massa - on another day they both don't make it to the end, especially the former who lost a big piece of bodywork during the clash.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

It's complete crap. The implication is that - in a tight, furious battle for ever-fluctuating race positions between themselves, Ferrari and McLaren - that RBR would purposely want to lose out on Webber's car by somehow slowing him. That is utterly a silly suggestion!

Who said anything at all about slowing Webber down? If there is only one new wing available and it's handed to Seb, that's not slowing him down is it?

Why would they want to slow their driver down?

I am saying Seb has a performance advantage above and beyond everyone else only useable a couple of times a race and in Q3

If you dispute this, please explain Webbers sudden performance parity on a weekend that all off throttle exchange blowing is banned?

I don't see anything wrong with giving your number one driver a trump card

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Yes I am speculating FB

But you gotta admit I have even more of a case now than before

RBR called Webber off
RBR have given Seb a wing from Webbers car before

Seb didn't have a Q3 half second gap on his teammate
Seb was matched with Webber on pace

Seb is faster and more clinically efficient than Webber, but the previous gap was not merely 'Webber getting use to tyres'

RBR special magic for Seb was not there today, instead of been serenely clear if Webber the poor chap had to mix it a little

Let's see if the OTEBD is allowed back next race, we might find the status quo at RBR resumes and Horner will no longer need to watch the wild Aussie, Seb will turn up the boost burn more fuel and disappear 1/2 a second ahead

Surely they share data and telemetry.

 

[MCLS]

That's about it.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Surely they share data and telemetry.

It would just show Seb lifting off a lot less through corners

It would be an engine settings map, webber would have similar maps

The only thing I am not sure about is activation, I dont think steering wheel buttons can change the amount of off throttle opening

Anyway it's a theory and I'm sure Newey knows exactly what he is doing, better than any one person out there possibly

 

[ExtremeNinja]

There would certainly be enough data to draw conclusions. I'm fairly certain that for the most part Vettel is beating Webber on his own merit and that his number 1 status is a product of relative results and performance. I know Red Bull talked about equality last year, but that was at a time when they were evaluating thier drivers against one another. Seb has naturally risen to the top.

It is hypocritical of Red Bull, of course, but Christian is no master of PR. To say that they are nobbling Webber is pure fantasy, but they are certainly focusing thier support towards the faster of thier two drivers.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Who said anything at all about slowing Webber down? If there is only one new wing available and it's handed to Seb, that's not slowing him down is it? I am saying Seb has a performance advantage ... I don't see anything wrong with giving your number one driver a trump card

Why wouldn't they want Webber to be able to have the same advantage, given that he's been beaten by Hamilton, Button and Alonso collectively a number of times this year. It makes no sense. You never want to let any of your cars being beaten by cars from Ferrari and McLaren. If you can afford it financially (like RBR now...unlike Lotus in 1986), then you need to have both cars fully operational. So, what you're saying makes no sense from a business perspective. It is a business and it would be poor business to disadvatage one of your two cars and subjugate it to a McLaran or a Ferrari.

PS

That one wing was a year ago and they learnt from it. This year, Webber had the upgrade on his car after Vettel's broke in Turkey. So there was no favouritism there. None.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

RBR are faster than the other cars even without Off throttle blowing

Seb is faster than Webber

Let's take this slowly

RBR obviously do not want their two cars squabbling on track leading to crashes as is possible with two drivers both wanting to win

So Seb has proven to be faster and is a defacto number one

How would you avoid your two combatative drivers taking each out?

Give the faster one a slight edge? Or use team orders?

Which is better for the public?

Ok so how do we give a faster driver an edge? See my theory above

How can we test this theory?

Let's see what happens when neither driver is able to create variable downforce, like this weekend

Still with me?

Webber was beaten by other cars and so why didn't RBR give him the same boost?
Because his car is better even without and it's only bad luck that saw him beaten by others, the same boost would not have cancelled out this bad luck

Why is Webber suddenly challenging Seb again after all this time?
Why this particular weekend?

 

[TN23]

What opinion is certainly wrong, is the opinion that Webber is having things done to slow him down or to reduce his competitiveness (Why would Red Bull want their second car to run around behind Ferraris and McLarens?).

However, Vettel is being favoured in some way at Red Bull (Although probably not in technological terms), by having the luxury of dictating his strategy to the detriment of Mark Webber (Probably as a by-product), and by not being allowed to be overtaken by the boss.

It wouldn't be surprising if this car was not developed to be optimised towards Vettel's driving style (Like the early nineties McLaren's that the lanky Berger struggled in because of his size, or the way that the 1994 Benetton was so suited to Schumacher's style, and probable traction control, that no-one else could drive it), and this was putting Webber at a disadvantage here.

 

[Bill Boddy]

The money that comes from FOM is distributed according to the positions in the WCC, there is no extra for the WDC. This is a major form of funding for the teams. Why would any team principal risk losing money by purposely disadvantaging one of his drivers?