F1 Turbo Engines for 2013

[FB]

So it's back to the future for F1 in 2013. The latest reports are suggesting the current 2.4 litre V8 units will be dumped for 1.5 litre, 4 cylinder, twin turbo engines. Presumably these won't be the 1,000 BHP per litre fire breathings monsters we all knew and loved from the mid 80's but wouldn't it be great to hear a waste gate popping opening again and and to see balls of flame bursting out of the exhaust?

Chances are these will end up being like neutered dogs, with highly restricted boost levels and a fuel economy formula. Even so, Honda managed some very imaginative ideas in the last season for the turbos (involving taking the air from different areas in the car so it was at different tempertures if I remember rightly) so it will give the engineers some new areas to work on. It might even encourage some new engine manufacturers to come forward, the Hart and Zakspeed engines were both quite effective, albeit at a time of unlimited boost.

It will also require the drivers to learn some new skills as keeping the boost pressure up on a turbo requires a different approach compared to normally aspirated engines.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/15389.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

 

[sobriety]

Surely the easiest way to limit power/get good 'relevent' R&D going would be to allow no limit on boost but to limit the mass of fuel they're allowed to carry. It'd also add an interesting dynamic to the races by giving the drivers something else to manage, as if you ragged it from the word go you'd run a very real risk of running out of fuel before then end of the race.

 

[Muddytalker]

Surely the easiest way to limit power/get good 'relevent' R&D going would be to allow no limit on boost but to limit the mass of fuel they're allowed to carry. It'd also add an interesting dynamic to the races by giving the drivers something else to manage, as if you ragged it from the word go you'd run a very real risk of running out of fuel before then end of the race.

Which is precisely what happened when we first had turbos. Now if only they could just get the tyres right.

 

[Enja]

Surely the easiest way to limit power/get good 'relevent' R&D going would be to allow no limit on boost but to limit the mass of fuel they're allowed to carry.

Bingo. A lot of fans have mooted this but I haven't seen any discussion of this from FOTA or the FIA.

If you give every team a certain amount of fuel across either each weekend, or preferably to me, an amount of fuel for the entire season, then we might see teams taking differing approaches. They'd need to be fuel efficient but also capable of producing plenty of power, and they'd be able to choose when to use it.

Unfortunately the turbo engines for 2013 that have been suggested sound ridiculous, trust the FIA and teams to cock it up. Somehow they're talking about a piddley 650hp - down from the current 750 or so - with a turbo! Only the current F1 specs could achieve a feat so incredible as that!

 

[siffert_fan]

I am curious about whether or not they would still be required to run on gasoline. In their previous interation, the turbos ran on mixtures of benzene and/or toluene to produce their prodigious power. The fuel was also cryogenically cooled to reduce its volume so that more could be packed into the car. Will that be allowed this time?

 

[cider_and_toast]

I am curious about whether or not they would still be required to run on gasoline. In their previous interation, the turbos ran on mixtures of benzene and/or toluene to produce their prodigious power. The fuel was also cryogenically cooled to reduce its volume so that more could be packed into the car. Will that be allowed this time?

I would seriously doubt it. There hasn't been anything specific I can find but I know that within the current regulations the fuel has to be at a certain temp when measured and that they must all use a certain type of fuel within a given spec and I can see no reason why the FIA would want to change this since it would involve another "arms race" this time in fuel development.

 

[Galahad]

If the target is 650bhp then we'll probably end up with over 800.

It's like the targets the governing body sets for reducing downforce...ending up with an increase!

 

[FB]

In response to Siffert_fan's question below is a link to the F1.com page on fuels - effectively it's pump fuel with a few additives but is carefully regulated and "fingerprinted".

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5288.html

On fuel tempertures, the FIA reg's state:

6.5.4 No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature.

So no cryogenic freezing to squeeze a bit more into the tank. Shame, could have saved Nick Worth a few bob if they could chill it down.

 

[Speshal]

Turbos for 2013

I just did a little sex wee when I read this headline.

Formula 1 teams are closing in on finalising all-new regulations for 2013 that will likely see a return of ground effect cars and turbo engines - as the sport witnessed in the early 1980's.

Only 1.6 Litre tho.........what are your thoughts

Autosport article

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Turbos for 2013

Yep, its been on the cards for 9-12 months or so, maybe longer. Im also really quite excited to see it happen

Only 1.6 Litre tho.........what are your thoughts

100cc more than last time, so surely 6.6% more power....

Err, no.

I can be fairly sure that they won't allow more than 1 - 1.5 bar boost so we won't be seeing 4 bar 1500hp Quali-spec monsters from the eighties.

At a guess, the teams would probably manage similar power levels to today (6-700hp) with around 1 bar, but less fuel (F1 wants to show some green credentials ). Another reason i don't see the power going much higher is because i can also see the FIA bringing the rev limit way down to 12-15k to further increase reliability, decrease costs etc etc etc.

 

[Galahad]

Re: Turbos for 2013

As grizzly says, the turbos have been virtually a given for some time now - but not as we knew them. I heard talk of a horsepower limit, which brings me out in a horrible rash. Hopefully it won't come to that.

The ground effects suggestion is actually more interesting to me. I'm glad to see the likes of Byrne and Head being involved in developing the concepts. Theoretically, g.e. cars are less susceptible to turbulence than the other cars and may be able to better follow - and pass - one another. But there are all sorts of issues to be overcome - g.e. cars are also very sensitive to ride height, and in the '80s this led to teams running virtually zero suspension travel, leaving drivers badly battered and bruised and with vision problems.

 

[Speshal]

Re: Turbos for 2013

Interesting thoughts there chaps, I was also wondering how long it will be before we see the first diesel F1 car?

 

[sportsman]

Re: Turbos for 2013

I think that this is in response to the FIA's proposal for a "world engine" to be used in in most motorsport.
WRC cars do have the same basic engine on their proposals with varying levels of turbo boost and different restrictors for different classes.
I seem to remember Max Mosely talking about this about a year or so ago.

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Turbos for 2013

I heard talk of a horsepower limit, which brings me out in a horrible rash.

Rather sadly i think for F1, turbo/engine technology has advanced so far since their last foray in F1 that it is quite possible the only reasoning behind the decision is cost/safety/political/carbon FP crap. All the stuff the fans hate to hear about.

To get a reliable, say 600hp, engine it is far cheaper to develop and build a boosted motor now than 20 years ago and for that matter, an all singin' conceptual NA v8. It would also be much easier for the FIA/teams to adjust power levels on the fly because it is essentially governed by boost levels/air flow through the turbo. I believe what they could actually do, which is sacrilege IMHO, is issue intake restrictors basically negating any variance in engine, so we might as well have one common power unit.... just saved some more money...

I have hope and remain positive that the teams will manage to strike a balance between the FIAs goals and the fact that this sport is a development race between individual teams/companies. A1 GP or HondaCar Indy Car, it is not.

 

[siffert_fan]

Re: Turbos for 2013

Has anybody heard about the fuel to be used? The last time, they were essentially rocket fuels, primarily toluene and benzen. I imagine they will demand something more pedestrian this time, say a petrol/ethanol blend (the ethanol would boost their "green" credentials).

 

[sportsman]

Re: Turbos for 2013

I heard talk of a horsepower limit, which brings me out in a horrible rash.

Rather sadly i think for F1, turbo/engine technology has advanced so far since their last foray in F1 that it is quite possible the only reasoning behind the decision is cost/safety/political/carbon FP crap. All the stuff the fans hate to hear about.

To get a reliable, say 600hp, engine it is far cheaper to develop and build a boosted motor now than 20 years ago and for that matter, an all singin' conceptual NA v8. It would also be much easier for the FIA/teams to adjust power levels on the fly because it is essentially governed by boost levels/air flow through the turbo. I believe what they could actually do, which is sacrilege IMHO, is issue intake restrictors basically negating any variance in engine, so we might as well have one common power unit.... just saved some more money...

I have hope and remain positive that the teams will manage to strike a balance between the FIAs goals and the fact that this sport is a development race between individual teams/companies. A1 GP or HondaCar Indy Car, it is not.

Hmmm 2012 Indycar regs.

"The companion 2012 engine strategy, which was announced June 2, includes turbocharged engines (to allow for flexibility in power) with up to six cylinders and 2.4 liters of displacement, tuned to produce between 550 and 750 horsepower to suit the diverse set of racetracks on the IZOD IndyCar Series schedle. An overtake assist system will provide a time-limited gain of up to 100 HP, and ethanol will remain the fuel".
http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izo ... -for-2012/

I intend to use a 2.4 flat 6 with twin turbo's.What will you use

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Re: Turbos for 2013

Ground Effect is really getting me interested. I was too young to watch it back in the early 80's but now with the current safety regulations and advances in technology this could be a really exciting time for F1.

 

[tooncheese]

Re: Turbos for 2013

What a ridiculous idea, sounds great

 

[Gumshoe]

Re: Turbos for 2013

I just did a little sex wee when I read this headline.

Formula 1 teams are closing in on finalising all-new regulations for 2013 that will likely see a return of ground effect cars and turbo engines - as the sport witnessed in the early 1980's.

Only 1.6 Litre tho.........what are your thoughts

Autosport article

I don't understand why they would want to bring back ground effect cars. They were banned for safety reasons and I can't see how the inherent danger has changed.

 

[FB]

Re: Turbos for 2013

This is part of Max Mosley's dark and satanic "standard motor sport" engine and the plan is for them all to be a straight 4 a la the BMW motor of Brabham fame.

http://cliptheapex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1613&p=19062&hilit=+turbo#p19062