Caterham (formerly Lotus)

Andrea_Moda_Rules · 6 February 2013

Brogan unfortunately Manpipe seems to have stopped updating there results after Italy, didn't realize though i could get them through the F1 site. Thanks anyway.

Im not going to get into this tit for tat argument but certainly in the free practice sessions Guido get closer and closer to whomever teammate was and even beat Petrov in Brazil. Its hardly a scientific answer though admittedly. Im not sure even when he last last steeped in an f1 car before then, so could of been very much re-learning to drive an F1 car too.

Its odd Rasputin you mark Razia out as somebody who should of been in his seat, This is someone who before 2012 has done little, and you could accuse him of being just a pay driver himself.

Van der Garde, granted would not of been my first choice, but i dont think its a massive jump to see why somebody thinks he could do a job in F1, especially when you consider where Caterham are, The return of the early 90's thinking that being at a tailender team could be a career wrecker. Others like Frijns perhaps hoping on other drives through a test year etc.

RasputinLives · 6 February 2013

Razia is 23 and has gradually been moving up the field in GP2 until he took a second place in the championship last year.

Van Der Garde is 27 and has consistantly finished around the 6th to 8th position in GP2 for the last few years with no significant improvement. Add to that he paid a massive fee of 7 million to take the reserve driver spot at Caterham away from Razia who had it in 2011 and it all seems a bit wrong. Caterhams GP2 feeder team is all about the cash, unless you want to argue Gonzalaz was picked for talent.

I'm not championing Razia. Why they didn't go for Kobi, Kovi or Petrov only their bank manager knows. I'm just saying when both Razia and Van Der Garde are linked to the team and both have funding then to me Razia seems the obvious choice thats all.

Cue patriotic dutch defence from @mmmpits

mnmracer · 6 February 2013

Patriotic bias has nothing to do with it. I defend any driver that is attacked for factually incorrect reasons. I thought that was obvious by now.

Like I said (copy+paste), all you know of van der Garde in regards to the drivers you mentioned is their career prior to F1. Of those, only Heikki and Timo have a career that is notably better, or even better at all, than van der Garde's.

van der Garde: 5 wins in 5 years GP2 and serious title contender in '11, World Series champion '08
Kobayashi: 1 win in 2 years GP2, no higher level championship
Buemi: 2 wins in 2 years GP2, no championships at all
Petrov: pretty similar pre-career to van der Garde's, F1 debut at age 26
Valsecchi: 2012 is the only year he ever finished higher in GP2 then van der Garde.

You could argue Valsecchi, though if he was really such a much better talent I don't he'd have taken 4 years to not finish lower than 7th, but naming Kobayashi, Buemi and Petrov as examples is just factually blind.

Frijns is a whole different story; he is obviously the best thing since sliced Gouda (from what he's shown so far), but that is a non-discussion. Frijns is not without a seat because of van der Garde, he is without a seat because he signed a testing seat for Sauber.

Those are 4 factually false arguments. You don't have to think van der Garde is good, or worth it, but don't make up things that are just pure BS. And if you can't find a factual reason to dislike him, because he has done equal or better as drivers that fit your standard, just don't bother with him

I personally didn't much care for Pic or Vergne last year, but I didn't feel the need to attack them with factually incorrect or double standard statements. Sometimes you just don't have something with a driver, it happens. Just let that be the case, but don't come up with all kinds of untrue bullshit.

RasputinLives · 6 February 2013

If you could please refrain from stating my opinion is BS then I'm sure this conversation would go a lot better. I know you don't like people dusagreeing with you but please understand we all see things different.

Your the one using junior careers on this. Kobi has had 3 solid years in F1 and last year got his first podium. Petrov is the reason Caterham scored their 10th place and Valsechhi did something Van Der Garde has never come close to doing which is winning GP2. Van Der Garde has been trying to buy his way in for years and no matter what stats you use to try and show otherwise, I, and I am sure many others see him as a second rate pay driver who is keeping talent off the grid. Unless he shows otherwise my opinion of him shall remain thus. You started this by saying how great it was to see Caterham bringing through their test drivers to which over the last few days I've argued with you that this isn't blooding new talent but who has the biggest cheque book so I could state your last few lines back to you but I won't because my mama taught me not to dis people on the internet.

mnmracer · 6 February 2013

RasputinLives said:
If you could please refrain from stating my opinion is BS then I'm sure this conversation would go a lot better. I know you don't like people disagreeing with you but please understand we all see things different.

At best, your 'opinion' is comparing apples and oranges.
So it's either a bad comparison or factual BS. You know very well what I talk of.

Btw, speaking of BS (seriously people, how hard is it to not distort simple facts?)

Valsecchi did something Van Der Garde has never come close to doing which is winning GP2.

Until the final 2 races of 2011, van der Garde was 2nd in the standings, until a run of 4 no-points finishes (no thanks to Biancchi). If you'd actually know what you were talking about, you might not be so bitter.

Your the one using junior careers on this. Kobi has had 3 solid years in F1 and last year got his first podium. Petrov is the reason Caterham scored their 10th place and Van Der Garde has been trying to buy his way in for years and no matter what stats you use to try and show otherwise, I, and I am sure many others see him as a second rate pay driver who is keeping talent off the grid. Unless he shows otherwise my opinion of him shall remain thus.

Because that's the only thing you can compare them with. In the comparable situations they were in, van der Garde did equal or better than drivers you believe deserve to be in Formula One.

Based on what do you believe that someone who did better pre-F1 than Petrov, Kobayashi and Buemi, could not perform on a similar level in Formula One? Again, don't come with all this "GP2 this or that", because you show with Petrov, Kobayashi and Buemi that GP2 performances is not what your standard is for judging a driver. Or can you only judge drivers by a double standard?

gethinceri · 6 February 2013

Please stop now.

mnmracer · 6 February 2013

What's wrong with getting the facts on the table rather than burn a driver to the ground based on factual inaccuracies or double standards? I know the internet is full of that sort of thing, but shouldn't we aim to do at least a little better?

FB · 6 February 2013

Argue by all means but don't make it personal. Future posts which attack the poster will be deleted.

Thanks

FB

RasputinLives · 6 February 2013

to conclude.

I think Van Der Garde is tosh. I base this on what I've seen of him. This is my opinion and won't change until he's shown me otherwise. I also reserve the right to express that I think he's as much use as a chocolate fire guard when he is brought up on topic but when I do this please do not take this as given that if I met him in the street I would punch him in the face. I would never do this to any driver other than Eddie Irvine and who can say they wouldn't be tempted with that?

Anyways moving on......

Caterham only just beat Marussia last year when they had Kers advantage. Marussia look a far more together team this year than they have before and now have Cosworths undivided attention. Anyone think Caterham should be worried?

teabagyokel · 6 February 2013

RasputinLives - Should Caterham be worried. Damn right they should be worried. Marussia came roaring back towards them towards the end of last season. I doubt Cosworth were losing too much sleep over HRT but I suppose having a unique engine is an advantage for anyone, particularly if they can develop an effective working relationship.

You suspect they've been playing catch-up since Nick Wirth was playing Fantasy F1 in 2010 and managed to ignore having a big enough fuel tank etc.

One other interesting thing is that the only driver in the four back cars is Pic, and he's only had a year! If one of these teams could start to bridge the gap one of the drivers could build a serious reputation.

RasputinLives · 6 February 2013

I would say Pic was the ace up Caterhams sleeve just because he'd started to look good and his experience of the none european tracks will serve him well. I think if Marussia had kept Timo they might be the head of the game.

I have a funny feeling that this will be the season that another team falls back into the clutches of the 'new two' and whilst I will miss the plucky rubberband cars of HRT it is going to make Q1 more interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see Marussias and Caterhams dueling with Force Indias and Toro Rosso's this season at somepoint though.

teabagyokel · 6 February 2013

Last season Caterham were duelling with Toro Rosso at Valencia - in fact the four cars each made contact with each other - but seemed unable to repeat the feat.

sushifiesta · 6 February 2013

From the extremely limited evidence we have so far it doesn't seem to me that either Caterham or Marussia have made massive gains. Caterham, for example, have been hovering at around 1.5s off the nearest established team based on fastest times. Roughly speaking they were one second behind Toro Rosso at their most competitive in 2012 and 2s behind at their least competitive.

However, we've only had two days of testing and both Caterham and Marussia are getting used to new drivers as well as Marussia having KERS to figure out so they could become more and more competitive as testing continues... if you think the drivers are up to it.

Il_leone · 12 February 2013

I would be worried if I was Caterham because it is obvious Fernandes has lost interest in F1 once they surrendered / lost the use of using Lotus

They were expected to attack the midfield teams and have not made much gain

Like i said Renault were looking to reduce engine supply one time and don;t really have a rapport with Caterham like they do with Williams and Red Bull

The team has not made gains despite having probably the more experienced engineers than the other two
----------------------------

Marussia may struggle to because they lack experience with two rookies but you'd think being Russian and with the grand prix in 2014 there will some investment into the team

Il_leone · 12 February 2013

As for Van Der Garde...

Just because someone is impressive at junior level does not automatically mean they will be good when they get into F1

I can name a few drivers who achieved nothing worthy of note at junior level but became world champions and also some very talented drivers who never succeeded in f1

cider_and_toast · 13 February 2013

This season really is make or break for Caterham. The time for excuses is now over. They have the complete package available, including KERS and all the other bits. Obviously, getting rid of Kovi could prove to be a mistake but if they can't deliver on the car front, then it wouldn't matter if they had Kovi, Alonso or anyone else behind the wheel. A second or more off the pace is just too much to drive around.

Il_leone · 14 February 2013

I am perplexed about Mike Gascoyne he designed decent quick cars at Jordan, Renault and Toyota so how come he's not able to bridge the gap to Toro Rosso who after all cannot simply borrow a Newey designed chassis anymore

I would have thought Caterham would have at least got itself up to Toro Rosso

Are they buying technology from one of the leading teams then?

teabagyokel · 16 March 2013

First blood to Van der Garde, that'll be a boost to his credentials!

RasputinLives · 16 March 2013

Dropping it twice in 20 mins probably didn't though and if Pic hadn't have dropped it at the end on the inters then he would have been quicker but yes 1-0 too VDG and I'm sure it'll ease some of the pressure.

Bill Boddy · 16 March 2013

Does this mean that so far he has been the least slow of the pair? I think that he is ahead on the wings count though, is that right?

Caterham (formerly Lotus)

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