Ask The Apex
- Thread starter Galahad
- Start date
Brian_W_Lawrence
Rookie
4-3-4 wasn't used at every race, but that layout was used at
some events in every season from 1950-67. The last GPs with a
4-3-4 grid were both the British & German GPs in '67. The
rest of the 1967 events were either 2-2-2 or 3-2-3, a situation
that continued until 1973 - the Dutch GP was the last 3-2-3
grid.
All of the 2-2-2 grids were formed with two cars on each row
side by side. That continued with one or two exceptions until
1979. The exceptions were at Monaco (1975, 76, 78 & 79), and
Long Beach (1976 & 78), where the current staggered grid was
tried. Since 1980 all grids have been staggered 2 x 2.
Grids have also differed with pole on the left or right, and
many of the earlier 2 x 2's had offset rows, with the 3rd
grid slot being 'between' slots 1 & 2, with slot 4 off to one
side (sometimes left & sometimes right).
This might be opinion rather than a specific fact but does F1 sound different at Silverstone? This may sound silly but I'm watching a re-run of FP2 and, obviously, F1 cars have a specific noise but the environment they race in has an influence on the sound and I get the impression Silverstone is unique given how open the circuit is and because the circuit isn't surrounded by huge grandstands.
I've only seen F1 at S'stone and Brands so would be interested to hear what others think.
I've only seen F1 at S'stone and Brands so would be interested to hear what others think.
ramilas1
Podium Finisher
Talking of Silverstone, I was a little bemused by the decision to swap the drive-throughs over to 10 second stop/go pens.
From what I could gather in among the MB/DC chatter this was an arbitrary decision due to the shortness of the new Silverstone pit lane, but it does lead me to ask a couple of questions.
In among all the wonderful CTA statistics do we have a comparison, time wise, for all circuit drive through penalties?.....
...... this would have to be in relation to time lost as compared to normal racing speed on the pit-side track section.
And, if this is going to be the case every year at Silverstone, what are they going to impose for a real 10-sec d/t penalty?
From what I could gather in among the MB/DC chatter this was an arbitrary decision due to the shortness of the new Silverstone pit lane, but it does lead me to ask a couple of questions.
In among all the wonderful CTA statistics do we have a comparison, time wise, for all circuit drive through penalties?.....
...... this would have to be in relation to time lost as compared to normal racing speed on the pit-side track section.
And, if this is going to be the case every year at Silverstone, what are they going to impose for a real 10-sec d/t penalty?
It will be unless they put in a chicane at the Pit Entrance. I mentioned this somewhere else, but the layout allows you to GAIN time on a drive-through. Nearly every driver set their fastest 'unofficial' time on a Pit IN-Lap.
****(Personal Rant Starting)This phenomenon wreaked havoc with the Lap Chart. On a number of occasions a trailing car would "Jump Ahead" of another on the LC when they entered the pit lane. This could cause a lot of confusion years from now if somebody wanted to go back and just look at the lap chart and count the overtakes.(Personal Rant Finished)****
Brian_W_Lawrence
Rookie
Best I can find at the moment - Drive Throughs in 2011:
AUS BUT (17) 16.867; BAR (28) 16.892
MAL BUE (20) 29.843?
CHN LIU (9) 14.160; PER (48) 13.900; PER (50) 28.845?
TUR MAL (45) 13.925
ESP none
MON DIR (27) 19.360; HAM (43) 19.347
CDN BUT (13) 14.501; DAM (36) 14.538; SUT (45) 14.565
EUR none
GBR MSC (16) 31.751; KOB (20) 31.551
? I don't know why these seem to be so high.
Subtracting the stationary time from a few Silverstone
stops give an approx. figure of 19-20s for the pitlane
traverse, consistent with the 21s time for MSC & KOB
(who had to slow and accelreate to/from rest).
AUS BUT (17) 16.867; BAR (28) 16.892
MAL BUE (20) 29.843?
CHN LIU (9) 14.160; PER (48) 13.900; PER (50) 28.845?
TUR MAL (45) 13.925
ESP none
MON DIR (27) 19.360; HAM (43) 19.347
CDN BUT (13) 14.501; DAM (36) 14.538; SUT (45) 14.565
EUR none
GBR MSC (16) 31.751; KOB (20) 31.551
? I don't know why these seem to be so high.
Subtracting the stationary time from a few Silverstone
stops give an approx. figure of 19-20s for the pitlane
traverse, consistent with the 21s time for MSC & KOB
(who had to slow and accelreate to/from rest).
These were both 10 second Stop/Go penalties.
I don't think it is the pit lane itself Brian that makes it a problem - it is as Keke says, it is that the pit lane cuts a decent chunk of the track out as you miss out the Vale and Club corners as well as getting a slightly shorter line on the inside of Abbey. At most circuits a normal drive through would have sufficed but there would have been a very minimal loss of time had a 10 second penalty not been dished out. That's the best I can make of it anyway.
That's exactly why the 10 second stop go was introduced for this circuit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9532348.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9532348.stm
I thought there used to be a Stop and Go penalty which meant the car just had to be stationary for a moment then released again, surely that would have been the better penalty as the time needed to stop and start up again should make the total pit time sufficient enough to make the penalty worthwhile.
Bleu
Podium Finisher
I think that would have been good decision at Silverstone too. With the current rules, you can have drive through for minor infractions and stop/go for bigger ones. But what to do in Silverstone with major infraction? A longer stop/go?
Here's the regulation on penalties:
Item 16.3(c) suggests that any other time penalty may be used at the stewards' discretion, such as a 15 or 20 second stop-go for example. Having said that, when was the last time before last Sunday that a ten second stop-go was issued? These days they seem to go mainly for the drive-through.
When was the last time a stop/go penalty was issued? I'm thinking sometime in the 90's
TN23
Rookie
Did Webber get a d/t or a stop/go at Germany '09?
I've managed to do a little digging, I've found a video of a 5 second penalty for Schumacher in 94. Did the actual stop/go penalty exist or did I just dream it?
TN23
Rookie
No points would be awarded. Although this situation has never happened, there have been situations where not all of the point scoring positions have been filled. The only two I can think of are the 1982 San Marino GP and the 1984 Detroit GP (where 5 cars were awarded points and 1 point for sixth was not awarded)
TN23
Rookie
Yes, It was a popular penalty in the mid-nineties. I'm sure someone has got a more comprehensive list, but here are some of the ones I can remember:
1993 Brazil- Ayrton Senna (Overtaking under yellow flags) and Michael Schumacher
1993 Monaco- Alain Prost
1994 Britain- Michael Schumacher (Overtaking Damon Hill on the parade lap)
1994 Australia- Mika Hakkinen and Rubens Barrichello (Both speeding in the pit lane)
1995 Belgium- Damon Hill (Speeding in the pit lane)
1995 Japan- Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger (Both jump started)
The most infamous one was probably 1998 Britain, where Michael Schumacher went into the pits on the last lap to serve the penalty, therefore passing the old timing beam at Woodcote, so therefore winning without actually serving the penalty. The penalty was not upheld, as it was handed to Ferrari on a scrap of paper, as a result some officials were sacked.
The F1 website has Schumacher shown as Disqualified after 60 laps, was this because of the overtake on the warm-up lap?
Incubus
Champion Elect
---------------------------------------------
Or more likely that the website is obviously a bit crap since Schumacher took second place.
Incubus
Champion Elect
In the case of 1993's Monaco penalty for Prost he would still have had a chance to win if he hadn't stalled twice during his penalty-stop. He'd stalled several times that season, as did d Damon Hill at the start of the portuguese GP so hat 1993 Williams must have been particularly difficult to start for whatever reasion.
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