Alain Prost

Alain Marie Pascal Prost OBE, Chevalier de la Legion d'honneur, is always mentioned whenever a list of the greatest F1 drivers is written. 4 times a World Champion, 51 Grand Prix wins, Alain pitted himself against some of the best drivers ever to race in F1, often in the same team - Senna, Lauda, Mansell, Rosberg, van de Poele, Schumacher.

Known as the "Professor" Prost started his F1 career at McLaren in 1980, moving on to the French national team, Renault, in 1981 Prost came close to winning the title but had to return to McLaren to fulfil his ambition to be World Champion, taking his first title in 1985.

Prost's career is often defined by his rivalry with Ayrton Senna but Prost the driver and Prost the man was far more than just Senna's great rival. At a time of Super Heavyweights in F1, despite being the size of a jockey Prost threw a driving punch to rival Mike Tyson in his prime. He drove for F1's greatest teams and won titles for all of them.

Alain Prost, The Professor, the best of them all?

 

[VanChallis]

No. It is very clear he couldn't. But points and championships are in general (2008 being a noble exception) decided by who wins the dry races. Prost won 48 of them.

... which finished one point behind in the Championship in the hands of Damon Hill, and won the WCC without its #1 driver.

The car's problems were sorted out by the middle of the season, couple this with the 2 race suspension that Scumacher had and it explains why Hill was so close, as well as Hill putting in some great drives. Obviously I can only hypothesise but I think Senna would have won the WDC in 1994 if he hadn't crashed, plus a couple more in the subsequent years.

I'm not for one second saying that Prost was anything less than a genius driver. People measure greatness in different ways, as we obviously do. The great thing about it is there is no right or wrong, it's just our opinions.

One thing I do stand by though. Prost should only be a 3 time champion, and Senna a 4 time champion, due to the farce that was the 1989 Suzuka race.

 

[Incubus]

One thing I do stand by though. Prost should only be a 3 time champion, and Senna a 4 time champion, due to the farce that was the 1989 Suzuka race.[/quote]

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Senna would still have finished behind Prost in 1989 even if he had kept his Suzuka victory...

 

[teabagyokel]

One thing I do stand by though. Prost should only be a 3 time champion, and Senna a 4 time champion, due to the farce that was the 1989 Suzuka race.

I'll go for: Prost should be a 5 time champion, and Senna a 2 time champion, due to the farce that was the 1990 Suzuka race.

 

[VanChallis]

I'll go for: Prost should be a 5 time champion, and Senna a 2 time champion, due to the farce that was the 1990 Suzuka race.

Fair point, but in my opinion, given what happened in 1989, coupled with the fact that Ballestre reversed an order to switch pole position to the left side of the track after it was established that Senna was on pole, I think he was well within his rights to do that. I'd have done the same for sure. And anyway, why would Prost turn in on Senna, knowing what Senna is like and also having more to lose by crashing?

 

[Galahad]

Alain was fed up with being the one who had to move out of the way to prevent an accident. As with bullying in most walks of life, if you keep on deferring to him the bully will only keep on taking advantage of you.

At least in '89 there wasn't a full field of 24, blameless, fellow drivers bearing down on them at 100mph+. Senna could easily have killed or injured someone with his actions. I'm sure that seems dramatic, but it's true.

 

[Slyboogy]

Interesting discussions guys, enjoyed reading it so far, as I don't know that much about the 80s era, so I have just been hitting the *like* button every now and again.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

The second race of 1994 Senna went out, but if I remember correctly it wasn't his fault, he was punted from behind by someone. (I think it was a McLaren) And let's not forget, he was trying to drive around the horrible inadequacies of the Williams that had all of it's electronic driver aids removed, despite the fact the car had been totally designed around it.

... which finished one point behind in the Championship in the hands of Damon Hill, and won the WCC without its #1 driver.

This has to be said and i'll say it again here...

The director of the movie "Senna" - Asif Kapadia - was on a Motor Sport Magazine podcast with Nigel Roebuck and then McLaren manager Jo Ramirez (who was, unusully, a trusted friend of both Senna and Prost)...and in the podcast he said something like this:

(Paraphrasing) "We had access to all of Bernies archives...and when we looked at the video of the cars coming out of Tosa at Imola, Schumacher's Benetton was the only car which exhibited unusual signs of, *ahem*, traction control...even the other Benetton didn't have it..."

Go to the Motor Sport Magazine website and click on 'podcasts' and listen for yourselves (June 15th podcast, I think).

Why do I bring it up? Well Senna suspected Schumacher's Benetton had TC/LC and was driving out of his skin to make up for the difference. He noticed that it sounded different (to Verstappen's) from the pit wall after retiring at Aida (the second race of the year).

I don't need to go on about it, but you get the point.

Where does Prost come into this? Well, the Podcast goes into how Senna was on the telephone with Prost during that time talking, among other things, about that precise matter.

 

[VanChallis]

This has to be said and i'll say it again here...

The director of the movie "Senna" - Asif Kapadia - was on a Motor Sport Magazine podcast with Nigel Roebuck and then McLaren manager Jo Ramirez (who was, unusully, a trusted friend of both Senna and Prost)...and in the podcast he said something like this:

(Paraphrasing) "We had access to all of Bernies archives...and when we looked at the video of the cars coming out of Tosa at Imola, Schumacher's Benetton was the only car which exhibited unusual signs of, *ahem*, traction control...even the other Benetton didn't have it..."

Go to the Motor Sport Magazine website and click on 'podcasts' and listen for yourselves (June 15th podcast, I think).

Why do I bring it up? Well Senna suspected Schumacher's Benetton had TC/LC and was driving out of his skin to make up for the difference. He noticed that it sounded different (to Verstappen's) from the pit wall after retiring at Aida (the second race of the year).

I don't need to go on about it, but you get the point.

Where does Prost come into this? Well, the Podcast goes into how Senna was on the telephone with Prost during that time talking, among other things, about that precise matter.

If Senna said that Schumi's car was using a form of TC, then personally I'd believe him. Prost believed Senna too. There aren't exactly any better qualified people to know such a thing. One thing I must say, however, is that despite the fact that Senna was trying to make up the difference through his own driving to keep up with Schumacher, I don't think this had anything to do with his death, something that a few twisted people (in my opinion) seem to think. Tamburello is not a corner that should worry an F1 car, even back then.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

If Senna said that Schumi's car was using a form of TC, then personally I'd believe him. Prost believed Senna too. There aren't exactly any better qualified people to know such a thing. One thing I must say, however, is that despite the fact that Senna was trying to make up the difference through his own driving to keep up with Schumacher, I don't think this had anything to do with his death...

Let's take this to it's own thread...

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/ayrton-senna.3501/

 

[Il_leone]

I recall that Prost had almost twice as many fastest race laps as Senna. This could be used to justify the view that Prost was faster when it mattered most--in the race, while Senna was a bit like Trulli--faster in qualifying.

Also, it has to be noted that "fearless" Senna vetoed Lotus hiring Warwick, and insisted on Dumphries instead!

People want to judge Senna against PRost on fastest laps are missing the point. Senna use to storm away from the start and set a string of fastest laps before everyone has woken up and by the time they have he was usually 30 seconds or so in front so he did not need to push that hard although one time at Monaco he did try to outdo PRost after hearing Prost went 6 seconds faster on the previous lap despite being nearly a minute behind

 

[Galahad]

...although one time at Monaco he did try to outdo PRost after hearing Prost went 6 seconds faster on the previous lap despite being nearly a minute behind

...and crashed.

 

[teabagyokel]

In the minds of some, people who want to judge Senna against Prost by any measure in which the Frenchman wins tend to be missing the point.

 

[Incubus]

Incredible the way the Prost-Senna battles still gives rise to such passionate debates some 25 years later.

Personally I feel glad we had them, and that I was around at the time. They coloured my childhood.

 

[Il_leone]

In the minds of some, people who want to judge Senna against Prost by any measure in which the Frenchman wins tend to be missing the point.

Agree... because Prost was considered then the best driver on the grid and this upstart called Senna came in and blew him away with incredible speed in quali.

The pole lap at Monaco was unbelievable because Senna went even faster and the gap was 1.4 seconds to Prost which was unheard of as Prost's teammate

Okay Prost was his equal in races and was able to keep up with him. The accusations flown around was Senna had better engines so they compared lap per lap telemetry between the two and it was just that Senna was using the throttle more to get his speed whereas Prost was more conventional approach and using less fuel

The point is Senna made Prost look like a novice and a cry baby. He drove him out of Mclaren and said Senna can have the world title if he was willing to die for it. Prost said 1989 was his worst season in F1 despite winning the title

Whilst Prost tried to sort things out at Ferrari , Senna was doing better at Mclaren and part of it was probably in Prost's disillusion in speaking out at Ferrari politics seeing he can;t race Senna with a good car. The sacking of Prost is a real blemish on his career for one of the greats

 

[Il_leone]

Incredible the way the Prost-Senna battles still gives rise to such passionate debates some 25 years later.

Personally I feel glad we had them, and that I was around at the time. They coloured my childhood.

No such rivalry will come close because it superseded Piquet and Mansell the previous season and Pironi vs Villeneuve never materialised. Alonso vs Hamilton came under a cloud but it never got to such ferocity once Alonso decided he needed to be elsewhere but Mclaren

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

...because Prost was considered then the best driver on the grid and this upstart called Senna came in and blew him away with incredible speed in quali.

The pole lap at Monaco was unbelievable because Senna went even faster and the gap was 1.4 seconds to Prost which was unheard of as Prost's teammate

Okay Prost was his equal in races and was able to keep up with him. The accusations flown around was Senna had better engines so they compared lap per lap telemetry between the two and it was just that Senna was using the throttle more to get his speed whereas Prost was more conventional approach and using less fuel

The point is Senna made Prost look like a novice and a cry baby. He drove him out of Mclaren...

The sacking of Prost is a real blemish on his career for one of the greats

First of all, I don't even agree with the first statement. Senna wasn't coming in as a Number 2 into McLaren. Senna was BRINGING Honda engines WITH him. Honda was Senna's Ace coupled with the fact that he was already an Ace and being talked about as being a World Champion as early as 1985.

So, Senna was hardly some upstart.

Secondly, Senna wanted to humiliate Prost. That was his Achilles Heel because in trying to pull out huge chunks over him in one lap in qualifying for optical/psycological reasons, he left the door open for Prost to optimize his car for race set ups.

Prost knew that A) Senna was naturally faster over one lap when the car wasn't balanced to their respective liking and B) the gap to the other cars was big enough that even a big gap to Senna in qually would still ensure 2nd on the grid.

Had the field spread been narrower, Prost's approach would have been different.

With respect to race optimization, kindly note the glaring fact that Prost out-scored Senna over their two seasons together. In both seasons!

Senna made Prost look like a "novice and a cry baby"? Really? I saw both of their careers in full and that's news to me. Prost didn't like some guy trying to kill him. That's fair, isn't it? Prost had seen French-speaking drivers and friends like Gilles Villeneuve, Patrick Depailler and Didier Pironi either lose their lives or have their ability to walk properly ended...so there was good reason not to want Senna behaving that way from his point of view.

That's hardly crying.
Prost is still able to enjoy life with his family. He's still alive.

And, by the way, that 1991 Ferrari was a piece of shit and he WANTED to be sacked. Renault wanted him at Williams.

So what you see as a blemish, I see as being savy opportunism. Not only did Ferrari have to pay him a severence, but he got into a much better seat and won another Title. Ferrari weren't going to do that.

I don't know how much of their careers you saw but it seems as if you'r Deifying Senna and making a Mockery of Prost.

Neither needs to be the case.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Senna Prost

Prost had a lot of support off track. Without doubt Prost played the (French) politics better and Senna was forced to react on track

Sennas death was not a function of his driving style, he suffered car failure so its unfair to even hint that Prost lives as a result of his style, death was a lottery in the F1 of years past

 

[siffert_fan]

Galahad,

You , of all people, should know better than to resort to logic in threads such as this one. Logic and facts can never overcome personal biases, so attempting to do so is akin to peeing into the wind.

 

[Mryzyz]

Prost is the best driver ever, in terms of how strongly he demonstrated his superiority over his peers.

Over the total amount of time he was with any teammate, his results were so much better so as to put any question of his superiority beyond reasonable doubt.

No other driver showed he could out race so many of his most esteemed rivals in equal machinery, as Prost.

Without going to what I think is my limit. I always say that my ideal is to get pole with minimum effort, and to win the race at the slowest speed possible

The people who criticise you will not be the ones taking care of your legs when you are in your wheelchair. People who never drove a car in these conditions, they just don't know

Some Italians are geniuses, but you have to find a balance

So in fact the only thing you can judge in this sport its the longterm. You can judge a career or a season, but not one race

 

[ExtremeNinja]