Things ... 2015 - 2016 Silly Season. The Drivers Market.

[teabagyokel]

If we only score based on races where neither suffered a mechanical DNF then:

Then you don't take into account:

1. Bahrain - where Vettel lost a certain win to a mechanical, which did not cause a DNF.
2. Great Britain - where Vettel picked up a puncture on lap 1 and was only able to fight back after a Safety Car in the second half of the race.
3. Hungary - where Vettel essentially gave up a win because Red Bull forgot about a rule, giving Webber an absolute gift.

However, this is a side point. You have decreed that we compare both Vettel and Raikkonen to their team-mates. Apparently, Raikkonen is required only to beat his team-mate (even if it is due to him missing half the season), whereas Vettel has to kick his team-mate's arse by a huge margin and win the World Championship. Vettel, despite being 10 years younger than Raikkonen, is also allowed less tolerance of rookie mistakes over the same time period. Also, if you're Vettel, scoring two-thirds of your team's points in your maiden half-season is 'underwhelming' because it was only in one race - equivalent to Raikkonen getting battered by Alonso.

With such cherry-picking and self-rating, you could argue anything. We're here yet again, slating the record of a four-time champion because Webber nearly beat him once in five years.

But if you want an accurate measure of the two, look at just how bad a job Raikkonen has made of getting anywhere near the back of his team-mate in 2015. Vettel's close to that 50% mark as Alonso was.

 

[erinha]

There was also Japan'07. It wasn't just 1 race in 2007 either.

 

[teabagyokel]

The points-scoring for Toro Rosso was. Incidentally, he still holds 6 of their 7 finishes of 5th and better - although Verstappen broke that duck for their other drivers in Budapest.

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

Then you don't take into account:

There are many in-race reliability issues that I did not take into account. Even accounting for the other mechanical issues you noted means Webber still scores 73.8% of Vettel's points.

As for the rest of your comment... no... I have not said those things. Quite the opposite, because Raikkonen outscored both of his team mates in 2006 yet I called it one of his worst seasons!
The reason being is because Raikkonen should outscore Montoya and De la Rosa by very large margins, but did not do so in 2006. Likewise, Vettel should outscore Webber by very large margins, as he did from 2011-2013. The fact that he didn't in 2009 and 2010 means I consider them to be poor seasons on his part, and that's without getting into the myriad of driver errors he committed in both seasons.

Yes, I consider Vettel outscoring Liuzzi in 2007 to be underwhelming, because it was based on 1 good race whilst he was generally outpaced by Liuzzi elsewhere, and Liuzzi is not an outstanding driver. Most rookie seasons are going to be underwhelming by that driver's standards. As rookie seasons go Vettel's was very strong (even more so if you consider 2008 to be his 'true' rookie season, as it was his first full season).

I don't see why Vettel should be given 'tolerance' for rookie mistakes when he isn't even a rookie, nor does it change the fact that the mistakes actually happened. Yes, Vettel's mistakes back then were probably in part to do with inexperience, which is one of the reasons I consider his performances in those years poor by his own standards.

That Raikkonen has only 51% of Vettel's points is why A: I consider it a bad season for him and B: Consider it a good one for Vettel. The same applies in 2014 when Raikkonen scored just 34% of Alonso's points. The reason I don't consider those performances by Raikkonen to be quite as bad as some do is because I rate Vettel and particularly Alonso very highly, in fact I rate Alonso as greater than Schumacher.

 

[teabagyokel]

I don't see why Vettel should be given 'tolerance' for rookie mistakes when he isn't even a rookie

I don't see why Raikkonen should be when he isn't either.

 

[Il_leone]

Did anyone tell Ferrari that they have been ripped off with Kimi Raikkonen with they money they've paid to him which is probably $200m which is good enough for another season's budget

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

^$200 million? Over how long? If we are talking about just these last two seasons then that seems unreasonably excessive, he was only on $30 million per year in his first Ferrari stint from what I recall. $200 million is also only half a top teams yearly budget.

I don't see why Raikkonen should be when he isn't either.

He shouldn't, and I'm not giving him any.

 

[Il_leone]

Spinodontosaurus

If you go back to his 1st stint at Ferrari his management managed to convince Ferrari if they could consider him (Kimi) as the driver to replace Schumacher then he should be paid similar wages which was a staggering $50m-$55m a season . This was at least $15m more than what Alonso was being paid

He managed 9 wins , 1 title gifted to him because they made Massa move over (slow down) and in 2010 the year he took his sabbatical he was paid something like $25m to $30m just not to drive for another team

so that is at least $175m yielding 9 wins - this is the same amount of wins Rubens managed in his 6 years at Ferrari on much less wages

In his 2nd stint at Ferrari , so far he's has only scored 1 podium and being paid at least $15m a season so that is $30m for two years and he will probably get another $15m for next season

So that is $200m plus he's cost Ferrari for 9 wins only ... that is only a return on investment

 

[erinha]

How do you say "As rookie seasons go Vettel's was very strong", but then don't rate the season because it was poor for his four times world champion standards? Does that really make sense to you?

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

Il_leone
You are right about his wage. I was remembering him earning roughly 30 million, but I'm from the UK and work in £, so I am probably remembering him earning £30 million which under the current climate is indeed roughly $50 million.

I don't think you are being fair though. His cars were not as competitive as the Ferrari's that Barrichello drove.

How do you say "As rookie seasons go Vettel's was very strong", but then don't rate the season because it was poor for his four times world champion standards? Does that really make sense to you?

Yes, it makes perfect sense, because it is still arguably one of his weakest seasons. That's all I was judging, and I even noted at the time that it was his rookie season, so judging him on that is a bit unfair. I simply included it for completeness sake.

 

[Il_leone]

Spinodontosaurus

2007 Ferrari was a match to the Mclaren
2008 ditto but Massa did a much better job
2009 Ferrari was awful but again Massa did a much better job and showed better application which really angered Luca he thought Kimi just did not care or at least show the same level of dedication as Schumacher

2014 that was the worst Ferrari he drove but he was miles off where Alonso was
2015 He has the 2nd best car but is a distant 4th in the drivers championship behind his teammate

 

[Spinodontosaurus]

The points gap between Massa and Raikkonen in 2009 is a bit miss-leading, as Raikkonen suffered 3 mechanical DNF's to Massa's 2, with two of Raikkonen's DNF's coming in races where points were surely on offer. Attempting to correct for that by only counting races where neither suffered a mechanical DNF yields a much closer points tally of 13-10 in Massa's favour.

Raikkonen was also very strong in the second half of the season in a car that hadn't been developed since the early stages. He made Fisichella look amateurish, the same Fisichella who beat Massa in 2004 and performed just as good (bad?) against Alonso as Massa would go on to do (both scored 48% of Alonso's points). Fisichella jumped into the team mid-way through the season with no testing, but even so the points tally of 14-0 (or 36-3 under the modern system) is pretty damning.

I do agree that he was not and has not been as good as his salary would expect of him, and although I would expect Vettel is being paid more this year that's a little besides the point.

 

[teabagyokel]

Massa and Raikkonen are relatively equal. They had two and a half years of being barely split, then got equivalent trouncings from Alonso.

Fisichella was not used to the 2009 Ferrari - all replacements struggled that year, but Fisi was the only one learning to drive KERS too, on the hoof. Unless you count Badoer.

 

[Il_leone]

Considering Kimi was supposedly the star driver on at least 3 times the money Felipe was paid. He was poor. 2009 the Ferrari was poor and Luca Di Montezemolo expected to see Kimi galvanise the team which he did not see and is one of the reasons why he was replaced. Ferrari were quick to praise ALonso's work ethic compared to Kimi as soon as he joined

-----------------------------------------------

 

[erinha]

Wasn't Alonso signed long before that though?

 

[Il_leone]

Alonso was not signed until late 2009 but Ferrari did have an option in keeping Kimi or Massa . They decided Massa because clearly Kimi did not do enough to be No 1 and on the money he was on it was ridiculous to pay him to be No 2

 

[erinha]

They decided Massa because clearly Kimi did not do enough to be No 1 and on the money he was on it was ridiculous to pay him to be No 2

Really? I thought it was because at the time their sponsors had a say in their driver line-up, and Brazil market was even more important to one of their sponsors than Spain or Italy. One of the reasons it's said that they kept him despite poor performances.

 

[Il_leone]

erinha Marlboro were the main sponsors who would probably like to see a South American driver but Alonso was bringing Santander and a few other Spanish sponsors with him

Also Ferrari could have said Massa needed more time to recover angle but Kimi really did not help himself ... it was only when Massa was injured he suddenly woke up and got 4 podiums in a row. Then he also was still demanding a lot of money whilst speaking to other teams supposedly $37.5m or £25m at least

 

[erinha]

I'm not talking about Marlboro, I'm talking about the bank.

 

[soccerman17]

Back on topic... rumored Maldonado-Perez switch... ****ing hell...