Things ... 2015 - 2016 Silly Season. The Drivers Market.
Il_leone
World Champion
F1 news: Nico Hulkenberg has "good options" in F1 for 2016
Sorry Nico but staying at Force India aint going to help unless it is a much better car next year
Sorry Nico but staying at Force India aint going to help unless it is a much better car next year
He needs to properly beat him first, then start beating him more regularly.
You think it was "stupid" to keep Raikkonen, I think he's probably better than most of the drivers on the grid.
Wasn't Martin Brundle one of those people who kept saying Lewis to Mercedes was just a rumor, there was nothing there, up until it was announced?
I don't find any ulterior motive behind saying "I'd prefer Kimi". He's been saying that for years now, it's nothing new. Even when Kimi was in Lotus and looked properly menacing, when asked about his opinion about a new teammate Vettel always said things like "it's not my decision, but if I was to choose I'd prefer Kimi". I think it has more to do with their personal relationship really than their relative performances imo.
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
I'm pretty sure Vettel said mid-way through 2013 that he would rather have Raikkonen as his team mate than the other options being talked about (Ricciardo). Heading into the 2013 summer break Raikkonen was second in the championship and miles ahead of Grosjean.
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Looking at the charts olegg posted on the previous page, it's interesting to compare the % of laps the 'slower driver' was faster out of the total laps completed by the team.
By that measure the most miss-matched pairing is still Force India (Perez faster in just 35% of all laps completed), followed by McLaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, Toro Rosso, Manor, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber and closest of all Williams (Massa faster in 49% of all laps completed).
Considering that Kvyat, Sainz and Ericsson have finished ahead of their team mates more times than visa versa, it's surprising to see that it's actually their team mates that have been quicker in the races. Just comparing lap times can't control for different strategies etc. but even so. The Force India comparison is also way more one-sided than I thought, the same probably applies to McLaren for most people (although I was expecting that to be the case).
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Looking at the charts olegg posted on the previous page, it's interesting to compare the % of laps the 'slower driver' was faster out of the total laps completed by the team.
By that measure the most miss-matched pairing is still Force India (Perez faster in just 35% of all laps completed), followed by McLaren, Red Bull, Ferrari, Toro Rosso, Manor, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber and closest of all Williams (Massa faster in 49% of all laps completed).
Considering that Kvyat, Sainz and Ericsson have finished ahead of their team mates more times than visa versa, it's surprising to see that it's actually their team mates that have been quicker in the races. Just comparing lap times can't control for different strategies etc. but even so. The Force India comparison is also way more one-sided than I thought, the same probably applies to McLaren for most people (although I was expecting that to be the case).
and get paid $15m a year or so like he does
To be honest I'm not sure why people are that shocked at Kimi staying on. Its a long tradition in F1 that the second seat in a top team is filled by someone who is prob not the quickest talent to fill it but are kept on by the team because it works well with the top driver.
Its Gerhard Berger, its Riccardo Patrese, its Damon Hill (1993), its Johnny Herbert, its Eddie Irvine, its David Coulthard, its Rubens Barrichello, its Felippe Massa, its Heiki Kovalinen, its Mark Webber. Its F1.
Its Gerhard Berger, its Riccardo Patrese, its Damon Hill (1993), its Johnny Herbert, its Eddie Irvine, its David Coulthard, its Rubens Barrichello, its Felippe Massa, its Heiki Kovalinen, its Mark Webber. Its F1.
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Yes.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
i might be wrong but dont think his good options are in f1, i think he's off if porsche offer him a drive & also on the lower point it wouldnt be the 1st time ferrari wasted money on kimi
Il_leone
World Champion
F1Brits_90 I think someone needs to explain to the Ferrari bosses that Raikkonen has managed to deliver less than Alonso or Schumacher and cost just as much money
Il_leone
World Champion
RasputinLives The choice of Raikkonen has got me thinking again to something James Hunt commentated on in Kyalami 1992 when Senna was relentlessly pursuing Patrese who had the superior Williams " It makes you mighty angry that someone in a quicker car ought to be going a lot faster than you !"
I would certainly agree when Berger was soldiering around in 15th in his last few seasons in a front running car but he seemed to be given the slack because of his reputation.
I feel the same about Raikkonen when there are guys out there who would cost less money who would do just an effective job or if not better than him
He certainly does not deserve another chance ... I would call that a bad investment if any of us had underperformed for so long we would be out of a job
I would certainly agree when Berger was soldiering around in 15th in his last few seasons in a front running car but he seemed to be given the slack because of his reputation.
I feel the same about Raikkonen when there are guys out there who would cost less money who would do just an effective job or if not better than him
He certainly does not deserve another chance ... I would call that a bad investment if any of us had underperformed for so long we would be out of a job
I heard Williams engineers think that Bottas is faster than Hulkenberg. So is Rosberg. He didn't have a contract and he's a reasonably popular guy who's appreciated by lots of fans, and he just won Le Mans. I don't get why Ferrari wouldn't choose him over Raikkonen as long as he's faster.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
Might be controversial but especially considering kimi won title in 2007 but I think he's only had 2 good seasons in last decade 2005 & 2012
Il_leone
World Champion
F1Brits_90
Which makes you wonder if he has actually fulfilled his potential as a great driver
People seem to forget neither Mclaren or Toyota were willing to meet his wage demands when he was looking a seat for 2010 even though it meant he was going to earn less than what he was for taking a year off and paid by Ferrari
Simply he was not worth the money he demanded despite being 2007 world champion
Raikkonen must have some good influences at Ferrari then to keep his seat
Which makes you wonder if he has actually fulfilled his potential as a great driver
People seem to forget neither Mclaren or Toyota were willing to meet his wage demands when he was looking a seat for 2010 even though it meant he was going to earn less than what he was for taking a year off and paid by Ferrari
Simply he was not worth the money he demanded despite being 2007 world champion
Raikkonen must have some good influences at Ferrari then to keep his seat
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
I would add 2007, 2009 and 2013 to that list, bringing the total to 5 seasons out of 9 (Raikkonen didn't race in 2010 and 2011).
Looking at Vettel's 9 most recent seasons I would only rate 5 of them as good too; 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015.
Both drivers have had 3 fairly underwhelming seasons in that period in my opinion; 2006, 2014 and 2015 for Raikkonen, 2007, 2009 and 2010 for Vettel (although 2007 was his rookie season). Both have also had a single terrible season; 2008 for Raikkonen, 2014 for Vettel. I suppose 2014 merely being 'underwhelming' for Raikkonen rather than terrible is going to be a contentious point.
That said however... the last 2 seasons for Raikkonen have both been bad by his standards. He should be doing better.
Are you suggesting the season where Vettel came from behind in the championship.and won it in the last race of the season (2010) in probably the most close and competitive title race we've had in decades was a poor year for him?
RasputinLives - Having lost at least 60 points through no fault of his own?
That's a funny one. As Vettel started towards the end of 2007 and we are in the middle of 2015. He hasn't been racing in F1 for 9 years. Sooo, talking about "his 9 most recent seasons" sounds funny.
Imo, 2010 Vettel wasn't worse than 2009. But, 2015 Vettel would have won the 2009 championship too.
I'm also not sure 2006 was a bad year for Raikkonen?
I don't get your criteria, you think 2007/14 Vettel was bad somehow, but there's been years Raikkonen was beaten by his teammates like Heidfeld/Coulthard that didn't make into your list. There are people who reasonably think 2012/13 Lotus cars were one of the bests.
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
2007 and 2015 are half seasons only yes, but Vettel has participated in 9 Formula 1 seasons.
To explain my rankings of some seasons, the only point of comparison is the drivers' team mate, with the points scored against them being the strongest way to compare them. You can make allowances for mechanical failures and such if needed.
In 2006 Raikkonen did not have as big of a gap over Montoya as in 2005. When De la Rosa replaced him, Raikkonen should have been comfortably ahead, but De la Rosa actually got surprisingly close and was only outscored 26-19 despite suffering 2 mechanical DNF's to Raikkonen's 1.
2012 and 2013 were still very strong seasons, outscoring Grosjean by a considerable margin in both of them.
Seasons earlier than 2005 I didn't discuss because we were talking about the last decade only. For what it's worth 2002 was indeed poor, albeit ridden with mechanical issues, but 2004 was in my opinion his strongest season to date. 2001 and 2003 were good.
In 2009 and 2010 Vettel was impetuous, made frequent mistakes, was hopeless in traffic and only just beat Webber. In 2007 he was generally outpaced by Liuzzi, although did outscore him thanks to a great drive in China. In 2014 he was consistently outpaced by Ricciardo and was outscored badly too. By his standards that was a terrible season.
To explain my rankings of some seasons, the only point of comparison is the drivers' team mate, with the points scored against them being the strongest way to compare them. You can make allowances for mechanical failures and such if needed.
In 2006 Raikkonen did not have as big of a gap over Montoya as in 2005. When De la Rosa replaced him, Raikkonen should have been comfortably ahead, but De la Rosa actually got surprisingly close and was only outscored 26-19 despite suffering 2 mechanical DNF's to Raikkonen's 1.
2012 and 2013 were still very strong seasons, outscoring Grosjean by a considerable margin in both of them.
Seasons earlier than 2005 I didn't discuss because we were talking about the last decade only. For what it's worth 2002 was indeed poor, albeit ridden with mechanical issues, but 2004 was in my opinion his strongest season to date. 2001 and 2003 were good.
In 2009 and 2010 Vettel was impetuous, made frequent mistakes, was hopeless in traffic and only just beat Webber. In 2007 he was generally outpaced by Liuzzi, although did outscore him thanks to a great drive in China. In 2014 he was consistently outpaced by Ricciardo and was outscored badly too. By his standards that was a terrible season.
In 2009(10pts/win), Vettel beat Webber by 14.5 points.
In 2010, Vettel beat Webber by 14 points in 25/win, having lost certain victory to mechanical DNFs in two races, at least one more to a mechanical that left him in fourth. Both Webber's DNFs were clearly his own fault.
He made two mistakes. For both he was punished with a zero-point result.
In 2010, Vettel beat Webber by 14 points in 25/win, having lost certain victory to mechanical DNFs in two races, at least one more to a mechanical that left him in fourth. Both Webber's DNFs were clearly his own fault.
He made two mistakes. For both he was punished with a zero-point result.
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
In 2009 Webber scored 82.7% of Vettel's points.
In 2010 Webber scored 94.5% of Vettel's points.
In 2011 it was 65.8%.
In 2012 it was 63.7%.
In 2013 it was 50.1%.
If we only score based on races where neither suffered a mechanical DNF then:
In 2009 Webber would have scored 80.4% of Vettel's points.
In 2010 Webber would have scored 93.8% of Vettel's points.
In 2011 it would've been 62.8%.
In 2012 it would've been 63.5%.
In 2013 it would've been 54%.
I maintain my earlier view that Vettel's 2009 and 2010 seasons were quite poor by his standards, 2010 in particular it has to be said.
In 2010 Webber scored 94.5% of Vettel's points.
In 2011 it was 65.8%.
In 2012 it was 63.7%.
In 2013 it was 50.1%.
If we only score based on races where neither suffered a mechanical DNF then:
In 2009 Webber would have scored 80.4% of Vettel's points.
In 2010 Webber would have scored 93.8% of Vettel's points.
In 2011 it would've been 62.8%.
In 2012 it would've been 63.5%.
In 2013 it would've been 54%.
I maintain my earlier view that Vettel's 2009 and 2010 seasons were quite poor by his standards, 2010 in particular it has to be said.
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