Poll Who is better: Fernando, Lewis, or Sebastian?

[RasputinLives]

I was being delib obtuse but as its impossible to compare eras it is as good a stat as any.

in fact as there has always been only one championship a year its infinatly more reliable than race wins, points etc.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Maybe it's a question that just cannot be answered and so it is futile to try, it's not just 1+1=2 is it......?

 

[Bill Boddy]

I had no idea who is best, so I decided to ask Mr Ecclescake using a number of user names. His reply was:

1) It is definitely Hamilton, racecub, there is no-one to touch him on the days when he wins.

2) It is definitely Hamilton, Kewee, there is no-one to touch him on the days when he wins.

3) It is definitely Hamilton, RasputinLives , there is no-one to touch him on the days when he wins.

So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[RasputinLives]

Trusting Bernie. When is that ever the right thing to do?

 

[Il_leone]

Mephistopheles the only GOAT I know is someone on two wheels whose other alias is the Doctor

Vettel may go down as a great but not the greatest ever

 

[Mephistopheles]

Put it this way I have had many a pint of beer in my life some of them have been good some of them have been excellent but I cannot tell you which one has been the best, but one thing is for sure I can tell which one was the worst and that goes to the pint of draft bass i consumed, (Not for long.) in a pub not far from the railway station in Dawlish, Devon I can honestly say that is something I will never ever forget..

 

[Mephistopheles]

By the way that was an analogy just in case anyone thinks it is off topic, it shows you don't know who the best is in your own experience, but your sure as hell know who the worst was....

 

[siffert_fan]

Bill Boddy,

Are you sure that that's the horse's MOUTH?

 

[RasputinLives]

Lewis Hamilton would have been the greatest of all time had Fuel Stops been kept in the regulations.

In the current format its Vettel.

 

[Il_leone]

RasputinLives I thought fuel stops era was Schumacher or Alonso

 

[Mephistopheles]

RasputinLives That's a bit of a bold statement isn't it....?

 

[teabagyokel]

If F1 was a case of repeated concentrated sprints, I see little evidence to suggest that Hamilton would continue to be top dog. The current format rewards management in addition to absolute pace, thus Alonso and Vettel are brought at least a little bit to the fore in comparison.

 

[sushifiesta]

It's not refuelling but the 2009 regulations change. It's probably reasonably safe to assume that without the regulations overhaul McLaren and Ferrari would have continued to be top dogs with the likes of Lotus and Mercedes and eventually Red Bull fighting it out behind them.

The 2009 championship would then have been between Hamilton and Raikkonen, assuming Massa still got injured. If Raikkonen won it Ferrari may well have decided not to take Alonso in 2010 with a role reversal between the two (Alonso doing a stand out job at Lotus to eventually move to Ferrari with Raikkonen in 2014). Alternatively the two may have been partnered together earlier or Raikkonen may still have taken a break from F1 despite his continued success. Alonso and Ferrari are such a good match that I think they would have ended up together sooner or later. Let's say Ferrari bring in Alonso for 2011 after deciding that Massa is not the same driver that he was before his accident more quickly.

At McLaren they probably still would have dumped Kovalainen after 2009 but with Button not having won a championship he would not have been such a strong candidate to get the seat alongside Hamilton. My alternative favourites would be Kubica, Rosberg and the emerging young talent Vettel having spent an impressive debut season with the parent Red Bull team, making several appearances on the podium. Rosberg would have had Hamilton's recommendation but McLaren may have been worried that he would be too much like Kovalainen.

Perhaps they would have taken Kubica only for it to end up in disaster in 2011 with the rallying crash (or maybe McLaren wouldn't have allowed him to compete). They would have been forced to put someone like Paffet in the car for 2011 at short notice and then bring in Vettel, now consistently beating Webber but not having the car to win races, for 2012. Oh, and Hamilton wouldn't have left having won another championship or two.

So my WDCs for the past 5 years would have been between the following drivers:

2009: Hamilton/Raikkonen
2010: Hamilton/Kubica/Raikkonen
2011: Hamilton/Alonso/Raikkonen
2012: Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso/Raikkonen
2013: Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso/Raikkonen

And based on this the maximum number of championships won by each driver in question would be:
Hamilton: 6
Raikkonen: 6
Alonso: 5
Vettel: 2
Kubica: 1

Realistically maybe Hamilton and Alonso would have won 3 championships in total, Raikkonen 2 and Vettel 1.

So there you go, I have no idea where this explosion of speculative bull shit came from but I definitely think the front of F1 would have looked very different over the last five years if the "diffuser era" hadn't happened. This is all based on Ferrari and McLaren staying as clear top dogs when of course reality could have been very different - BMW Sauber were very strong in 2008 and Red Bull/Newey may have got their heads around the old regulations at some point as well for example.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'm sorry but that is probably the most unbelievable post I have ever read sushifiesta every time there is a rule change every team has the same opportunities to make the most of them or not as the case may be, you give Hamilton six WDC's he's only been in the sport for six years not including this one and yet in the same time frame you award other drives WDC's as well I'm sorry but I just cannot follow your logic.

And to be honest and no disrespect intended your assumptions are nonsense even if I only took your 2009 theory into consideration that McLaren was not a championship contender and would never have been no matter what rules were in place also you forget that Brawn were not the only team to have the so called double diffuser at the start of 2009 Toyota and BMW had it as well..

 

[sushifiesta]

Mephistopheles I am not predicting that Hamilton (and Raikkonen, if you look) would have won 6 championships and I am including this year. If you read the line under that list you'll see what I think is a more realistic proposition - Alonso and Hamilton on 3 championships each, Raikkonen on 2 and Vettel on 1. Reading between the lines, you'll see that that means I have given Vettel enough credit to have beaten Hamilton (as team mates) in at least one of his first two seasons at McLaren.

The first list with Hamilton having 6 championships is the maximum possible based on the drivers I thought would be in contention for championships in each year if the regulations didn't change. Based on the fact Ferrari and McLaren had a very healthy advantage on the rest in 2008 I have assumed that that would have continued through 2009-2013. Combine that with the drivers I speculate could have been at those teams in those years and you get the list of maximum possible WDCs won - it is impossible for all those drivers to win that many championships.

I don't really understand what you are arguing in your second paragraph. If the aerodynamic regulations hadn't changed in 2009 (well, after 2008) double diffusers would not have existed! Honda and Toyota had been in the sport for years with those regulations and not managed to break through to the top and BMW Sauber went off the boil in the second half of 2008. It's difficult to know whether those or other teams would have bridged the gap at some point but the safe bet is that Ferrari and McLaren would have continued to be at the top having dominated 2007 and 2008.

To cut a long story short, Red Bull would not have been championship contenders starting from 2009 were it not for the regulations overhaul and Vettel would not have won 3 (4) championships. That doesn't make him less of a driver, he'd just be a less successful one like Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are now.

Also, I did say it was speculative bull shit.

 

[teabagyokel]

Mephistopheles - If the rules hadn't changed, McLaren would never have designed that McLaren, they'd have evolved the 2008 car.

At the end of 2008 though, it did look like BMW and Renault might be building up to contention, Toro Rosso's improvement heralded great things for the Red Bull's new vet, and Trulli qualified 2nd at Interlagos for Toyota.

By the way, I truly (no pun intended) believe that had Brawn not existed that Toyota just might have replaced them. They wouldn't have chased so many cul-de-sacs and could have built a similar lead to Brawn by Britain.

Jarno Trulli might have been here today complaining about the power steering on the McLaren, while Jenson Button makes observations from the Sky Pad.

 

[The Pits]

Mephistopheles - If the rules hadn't changed, McLaren would never have designed that McLaren, they'd have evolved the 2008 car.

Yes, they had the fastest car at the end of the season, they would not jeopardise that with a radical redesign!

It is really difficult to tell what would have happened.

I think that Honda/Brawn would have come in to the reckoning either way, and likely Red Bull too. Perhaps the status Quo would have remained as McLaren/Ferrari, but think that a Ross Brawn lead Honda team would have made an impact sooner or later.

 

[RasputinLives]

.....and a Newy designed Red Bull

 

[The Pits]

Indeed, although I would think that the impact of a Vettel on Red Bull would possibly be greater, as Newy had been at RB for a few years and not done much.

 

[Bill Boddy]

If ifs and buts were pots and pans tinkers would be millionaires.

In 2009 RBR were the quickest non-double diffuser team. Vettel would now be approaching his fifth title. Maybe. Or something totally different might have happened. No, I was right first time, or second anyway.