Verstappen claims Schumacher used illegitimate means at Benetton

[Dario Resta]

I should add normally a black flag means you have 3 laps to pull into the pits . The fact is that Schumacher soldiered on for more than 3 laps would still have probably got him disqualified.

The only penalty more severe than a DQ is a race ban. Having a grid drop would not fit the punishment for ignoring a flag

The fact is that it was two penalties the team ignored

they sort of belatedly tried to serve the stop go penalty during a routine pitstop as the penalty spot use to be at the end of pitlane rather than your own pit was an attempt to sneak their way out

Are you sure about the pit stop? I thought Schumacher stopped for fuel before he took the penalty (which was on lap 27). also Benetton were informed of the penalty 27 minutes after the offence, which I believe should have been notified within 20 minutes if the FIA were playing by the rules.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Anyway what was this thread about again?

Oh yes was Flavio a cheat.....Yes I believe he was and if he manages to get back into F1 then it will be a sad day for the sport I love

 

[Mephistopheles]

Here is what actually happened

Michael Schumacher was handed a 5 second stop-go penalty for overtaking Hill on the formation lap. He failed to serve the penalty, and as a result was shown the black flag, requiring him to stop immediately at the pits. Schumacher did not acknowledge the black flag, and later claimed that he had not seen it. Benetton told the race officials that there had been a misunderstanding over the 5 second stop-go penalty, and after discussing the issue with the team the officials withdrew the black flag and Schumacher served the 5 second stop-go penalty.

And after the race.

The stewards fined Benetton $25,000 and gave the team and their driver Michael Schumacher a severe reprimand for ignoring Schumacher's 5 second stop-go penalty and the subsequent black flag. On July 26, the FIA World Motorsport Council increased the penalty to a $500,000 fine for the team and a 2 race ban for Schumacher. The WMSC also disqualified Schumacher from his second place at the British Grand Prix. The penalty was upheld on appeal on August 30.

Like I said Flavio argued the toss and got punished for it as well he should..

 

[Pyrope]

Has anyone else ever been done for the same offence, and is it still against the rules? I was under the impression you now only have to be in grid order at the end of the parade lap

Yes, it is still against the rules: Sporting Regulations Articles 38.6-38.8 cover the formation lap. Overtaking is permitted where it is unavoidable (such as a stalled car or other problem) and to re-establish grid order following such a circumstance. Otherwise you must remain in grid order with "the pole position driver leading". Punishments are either a drive-through or a stop-go, now as then. I don't recall anyone else ever being punished for this, but then again I also don't recall anyone else ever using the formation lap as an exercise in psychological intimidation.

 

[Dario Resta]

Anyway what was this thread about again?

Oh yes was Flavio a cheat.....Yes I believe he was and if he manages to get back into F1 then it will be a sad day for the sport I love

The thread title doesn't mention Flab, but does mention Schumacher? I agree with you that Flab should never be allowed back in to F1 though.

 

[Il_leone]

I remember only a couple of years ago the subject of Michael's black flag incident came up between Murray and Brundle and murray said he didn't understand why Schumacher got black flagged and Martin had to explain it to him again.

I know I'm not imagining this.

Murray I think knew the original stop go offence for failing to maintain grid formation on the parade lap

I guess his memory slipped by him after all he has been watching 60 years of F1

 

[RickD]

While I hear what you say I'm not totally convinced. I think the fact that not only was the TC code still available but the method to get to it was still there - although disguised - is suspicious in the extreme, and I assure you that is not the way a software developer would leave a portion of now-defunct code. That, plus the fact that the engine was heard to be behaving 'unusually' makes me believe he was cheating. Was it proven? No, nor do I think it will ever be until someone finally fesses up. As I say, its part of the game. I think it devalues the win, as did punting Hill off, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's one of the best drivers F1 has ever seen. Admittedly respect and liking are two different things ...

Dunno who you work for, but we have loads of defunct code that can be easily run, its the nature of the beast (I am a SQL developer/dba currently in a CF shop).

It has been 17 years, someone in the team would have said something by now if it was that obvious, but then thats another arsehole....sorry, opinion..

 

[Mezzer]

Dunno who you work for, but we have loads of defunct code that can be easily run, its the nature of the beast (I am a SQL developer/dba currently in a CF shop).

Many moons ago my background was Oracle too, as well as development I also did some criminal analysis for a couple of cases, it was actually fun working out what the naughties had got up to. My point is that if something is at one stage option 3 on a menu, and its no longer a valid piece of functionality, you don't just change it to be option 13 off the visible list, as happened in this case. Unless you want to use it again... Its what -- and /* */ are for

 

[Il_leone]

the launch control debate ..yes it was not on the first menu of programs but the second list ( hidden menu). The question is why were Benetton reluctant to allow officials access to it then ? If they said its on there and disabled then none would have been made out of it

 

[Dario Resta]

the launch control debate ..yes it was not on the first menu of programs but the second list ( hidden menu). The question is why were Benetton reluctant to allow officials access to it then ? If they said its on there and disabled then none would have been made out of it

They were only as reluctant as McLaren were with their source code.

 

[Il_leone]

They were only as reluctant as McLaren were with their source code.

Indeed both teams acted as though they had something to hide

 

[The Artist.....]

Indeed both teams acted as though they had something to hide

Well, the fact was that Alliot (I think it was) landed McLaren in hot water when he explained that he'd blown his engine in the Belgian GP (driving for Larrousse) that he was used to the automatic upshift on the McLaren (which he'd been testing), which the Larrousse didn't have!!!

 

[Il_leone]

Well, the fact was that Alliot (I think it was) landed McLaren in hot water when he explained that he'd blown his engine in the Belgian GP (driving for Larrousse) that he was used to the automatic upshift on the McLaren (which he'd been testing), which the Larrousse didn't have!!!

Mclaren were already in trouble before hand because there was suspicion Hakkinen used an automatic gearbox in Imola when he finished 6th

 

[Dario Resta]

Mclaren were already in trouble before hand because there was suspicion Hakkinen used an automatic gearbox in Imola when he finished 6th

The reason this was discovered was that Hakkinen actually finished third and became one of those, along with Schumacher and Larini, to have their car's source code analysed. I think it is worth making the point that those were the only cars to have their software scrutinised during the season. What else was out there that never came to light?

 

[Il_leone]

The reason this was discovered was that Hakkinen actually finished third and became one of those, along with Schumacher and Larini, to have their car's source code analysed. I think it is worth making the point that those were the only cars to have their software scrutinised during the season. What else was out there that never came to light?

Well the fuel rig removing the filter to allow fuel to flow faster causing Verstappen's fire at Hockenheim

the original explanation by Benetton was that they were allowed by the officials to remove it as quoted by Tom Walkinshaw

Upon the hearing it was then transpired a second team were given permission to do so

1) How can anyone be allowed to tamper with the rigs to gain unfair advantage and put safety at risk ?
2) Why did Tom Walkinshaw give the initial statement but was not at the hearing to clarify this ?

Benetton could have been banned or thrown out as it were which was never going to happen

 

[Dario Resta]

Well the fuel rig removing the filter to allow fuel to flow faster causing Verstappen's fire at Hockenheim

the original explanation by Benetton was that they were allowed by the officials to remove it as quoted by Tom Walkinshaw

Upon the hearing it was then transpired a second team were given permission to do so

1) How can anyone be allowed to tamper with the rigs to gain unfair advantage and put safety at risk ?
2) Why did Tom Walkinshaw give the initial statement but was not at the hearing to clarify this ?

Benetton could have been banned or thrown out as it were which was never going to happen

I don't think I can adequately answer all this, but the Hockenheim spill wasn't necessarily caused by the missing filter. There was a foreign body present that caused the valve to stick, but this contamination did not necessarily come from the fuel. Benetton filtered their fuel more than was deemed necessary to avoid contamination. Benetton stated that rig manufacturer Intertechnique had deemed the filter unnecessary because of this, and they took that as a green light to remove it. As you say, a second team (Larrousse) apparently were told the same thing. Larrousse were also in posession of a letter from Intertechnique that stated exactly that. Why this didn't exonerate Benetton, I don't know, but I reckon it saved them from being thrown out.

Why Walkinshaw didn't clarify at the hearing I couldn't say, but any advantage Benetton may have gained from removing the filter can hardly be called unfair if the manufacturer sanctioned it, as there is nothing in the rules to state how fast the fuel can flow, only that every team had to use the same rigs - except Intertechnique should have informed all the teams that it could be removed if the fuel had been filtered enough times beforehand.

 

[Dario Resta]

What I meant by other things not coming to light was that there were 14 teams competing, only 3 of which had their software analysed at all. 2 of those 3 were found to have potentially illegal software, so what are the chances of at least 1 of the remaining 11 teams running illegal software undetected?

 

[Jos the Boss]

Is it possible for them to strip him of the title? More than likely they can't so Jos is a bit late with this!

 

[Il_leone]

Is it possible for them to strip him of the title? More than likely they can't so Jos is a bit late with this!

Am afraid not because then we'll have plenty of title reversals based on cheating allegations if proven like Senna's admission in pushing Prost off at Suzuka a year later

I think there is a rule within the regulation that all standings in the world championships are final as of 30 November for the season and cannot be rectified

Think about it
1983 - Brabham and Piquet could be stripped using illegal fuel
1990 - Senna forcing Prost off
1994 - Schumacher forcing Hill off
2008 - crashgate and getting the results restated as of before the incident

it will just open up too many can of worms

Its not like athletics am afraid where drug cheats are stripped of all medals won and other athletes are promoted belatedly

 

[Il_leone]

Are you sure about the pit stop? I thought Schumacher stopped for fuel before he took the penalty (which was on lap 27). also Benetton were informed of the penalty 27 minutes after the offence, which I believe should have been notified within 20 minutes if the FIA were playing by the rules.

Yes what happened he was given the black flag that was after the stop go was issued which off course the team where wondering why they got penalised.
Even so about the issuing of the penalty . When he came in to do his routine fuel stop Schumacher he fuelled up first in the Benetton pit box and then drove down the pitlane to survive his stop go in the penalty box all in one go.

Subsequently rule was introduced that penalties are served independently of regular refuel, tyres and car damage pit stop
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