Verstappen claims Schumacher used illegitimate means at Benetton

[siffert_fan]

I_L
I may be thick here, but I don't see a difference, except in the penalty given out.

Schu--Pass leader on formation lap, ignore resultant black flag--2 race suspension.

Mansell--reverse in pit lane, ignore resultant black flag--1 race suspension.

Where is the difference, except in the championship implications?

 

[Galahad]

As I recall Schumacher was issued with a stop-go penalty for the infringement. The black flag only came out when Schumacher failed to serve that penalty. So you could argue (and I'm not bothered either way) that there were two infringements there.

He was disqualified from his second place too, of course, so it effectively became a three-race exclusion.

 

[The Artist.....]

I_L
I may be thick here, but I don't see a difference, except in the penalty given out.

Schu--Pass leader on formation lap, ignore resultant black flag--2 race suspension.

Mansell--reverse in pit lane, ignore resultant black flag--1 race suspension.

Where is the difference, except in the championship implications?

Well, there was the fact that Mansell also took out Senna after he had been disqualified! There was a legitimate argument in the case of Schumacher that the penalty was incorrectly applied as well - I can't think of any other reason they would ignore a stop-go penalty... However, no-one had ever been punished before for overtaking on the formation lap.....

 

[racecub]

But he got away with ramming Hill! Now if ever there was an avoidable accident there it is.It was deliberate and no punishment.Perhaps the black flag thing was harsh but it was more than compensated for by giving him the title and by future FIA favours when he was at Ferrari.
Back to the topic, as someone previously mentioned, Senna knew Schumacher had traction control. He walked round the track (I think Spa but Im not sure) and listened to the Beneton coming round and he was convinced by the sound it made that it had it. Ive believed it since Senna said that.
I give more credence to Senna's view that what Joss is saying so much after the event (though I do like Joss the Boss). I remember him having a tussle with Schumacher round Monacco and putting an excellent move on him. I can see the bit of track where it happened but cant remember what its called.I was off Schumacher by this time(Damon fiascos and other forms of cheating) so I was cheering Joss on

 

[Il_leone]

I_L

I may be thick here, but I don't see a difference, except in the penalty given out.

Schu--Pass leader on formation lap, ignore resultant black flag--2 race suspension.

Mansell--reverse in pit lane, ignore resultant black flag--1 race suspension.

Where is the difference, except in the championship implications?

Schumacher failed to serve the original penalty and plus he ran the race until the end . So the team knew there was a black flag and failed to call him

Unlike Mansell who was out of the race so was not punished there and then

Had Schumacher come into the pits and parked it then that would have been it...he completed the whole race so how ignorant can you get ?

Black flag means race over pull in

 

[Mezzer]

Seems to me that Schumacher is the Villian in this case without being caught, so that doesn't hold water. I give Schumacher the benefit of the doubt in this instance, especially as nothing has ever been proved either way

While I hear what you say I'm not totally convinced. I think the fact that not only was the TC code still available but the method to get to it was still there - although disguised - is suspicious in the extreme, and I assure you that is not the way a software developer would leave a portion of now-defunct code. That, plus the fact that the engine was heard to be behaving 'unusually' makes me believe he was cheating. Was it proven? No, nor do I think it will ever be until someone finally fesses up. As I say, its part of the game. I think it devalues the win, as did punting Hill off, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's one of the best drivers F1 has ever seen. Admittedly respect and liking are two different things ...

 

[Il_leone]

Well, there was the fact that Mansell also took out Senna after he had been disqualified! There was a legitimate argument in the case of Schumacher that the penalty was incorrectly applied as well - I can't think of any other reason they would ignore a stop-go penalty... However, no-one had ever been punished before for overtaking on the formation lap.....

No but the rules state that the formation lap the drivers must stay in place as they would start the grid...Schumacher spent 3/4 of the lap acting as pole man in which he was not so that is why he was given a stop go

If a driver fails to get away on the formation lap he would have to start at the back.

 

[teabagyokel]

Jenson Button / Jarno Trulli - both offered to stay at Renault with a clause that their pay rise includes Flavio has to be their manager taking a 25% commission of their salary. Both refused and were treated worse than dirt

I hadn't heard about that, but it is absolutely ridiculous if that is true, and I can't imagine in which territory coercion like that is legal. He's perhaps the shadiest of the shady characters we've ever seen in Formula One, with the main question being why the upper echelons of multinationals like Renault continued to indulge him using them to further his own goals by bringing in his own drivers and making no attempt to run a second car.

If Romain Grosjean gets the Lotus seat next year, he will become one of the first to recover from Flavio's "management". Piquet, whilst acting like a total tool, will never have made a worse decision for his F1 prospects.

And Button didn't do so bad out of keeping away from Flav, did he?

 

[Il_leone]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08122011/58/schumacher-cheated-first-world-title.html

Belatedly published

 

[Il_leone]

I hadn't heard about that, but it is absolutely ridiculous if that is true, and I can't imagine in which territory coercion like that is legal. He's perhaps the shadiest of the shady characters we've ever seen in Formula One, with the main question being why the upper echelons of multinationals like Renault continued to indulge him using them to further his own goals by bringing in his own drivers and making no attempt to run a second car.

If Romain Grosjean gets the Lotus seat next year, he will become one of the first to recover from Flavio's "management". Piquet, whilst acting like a total tool, will never have made a worse decision for his F1 prospects.

And Button didn't do so bad out of keeping away from Flav, did he?

---------------------------------

Yes Jenson is happy he does not deal with Flav anymore especially as he said Trulli was already his driver and his teammate at Renault and he wanted to bring in Alonso who he also managed

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know Flav is a sly rat/ snake and part of the deal offered to both Button and Trulli on their improved contracts were in re-signing the new deal they had to also agree that Flavio be their driver manager
Obviously neither were going to agree if their efforts to get a pay rise means Flavio pockets himself

--------------

Giorgio Pantano could have made it to F1 with Flav as his manager back then but the asking fee was 25% commission 0-the only people who don;t mind are Alonso and Webber

Alonso because he is smart in his demands where as Webber will show loyalty if Flavio can get him into F1 and find drives for him which he did

 

[The Artist.....]

No but the rules state that the formation lap the drivers must stay in place as they would start the grid...Schumacher spent 3/4 of the lap acting as pole man in which he was not so that is why he was given a stop go

If a driver fails to get away on the formation lap he would have to start at the back.

I'm not disputing the rule - what I'm disputing is the fact that no-one had ever been punished for this before - it used to be commonplace for drivers to overtake on the parade lap!

 

[Il_leone]

I'm not disputing the rule - what I'm disputing is the fact that no-one had ever been punished for this before - it used to be commonplace for drivers to overtake on the parade lap!

ahh Schumacher spent the entire lap nearly being pole man and that was his undoing as he was trying to out psyche Hill. Murray Walker was wondering why until he saw the reply and realised what Schumacher did and he was not meant to do it

Most drivers let the place back immediately if they realised they are out of position...Schumacher did not

The rule was bought in obviously so moving cars did not hit stationary cars or wipe out a mechanic as it happened once and to stop cars weaving in and out of formation

 

[Il_leone]

I should add Benetton got slapped on the wrist with a fine for failing to retire Schumacher as it were when given the black flag

Schumacher also tried to exploit another rule and that is serve his stop go at the same time as his refueling. Therefore in future all stop go and drive throughs were served separately from normal pit stop

 

[Mephistopheles]

The so called launch control software being just that software to control the amount of power being delivered to the back wheels during the start could be and probably was used as traction control during the race.

Yes Schumacher was told to stay out by Briatore which is why this thread is about him cheating and not Michael and quite rightly the team was disqualified and banned for two races.

A driver should never ignore flags and race control it is not Flavio's job to argue the toss with race control, it just shows his total arrogance.

What I find strange is that to this day Murrey Walker does not understand what Michael did wrong in fact when Schumacher took off like a scalded cat on the parade lap and overtook Hill the pole sitter Murrey was convinced the race had started.

 

[Dario Resta]

The so called launch control software being just that software to control the amount of power being delivered to the back wheels during the start could be and probably was used as traction control during the race.

Yes Schumacher was told to stay out by Briatore which is why this thread is about him cheating and not Michael and quite rightly the team was disqualified and banned for two races.

A driver should never ignore flags and race control it is not Flavio's job to argue the toss with race control, it just shows his total arrogance.

What I find strange is that to this day Murrey Walker does not understand what Michael did wrong in fact when Schumacher took off like a scalded cat on the parade lap and overtook Hill the pole sitter Murrey was convinced the race had started.

The launch control option discovered on the B194 was just that - launch control. it was not and could never have been traction control. The system Benetton and Ford Electronics had developed the previous year would have to be "armed", in so much as along with computer activation the driver had to run through a very specific routine of button and paddle pushes for the system to work. This could only work off the start, not during the race. There has been much made of supposed traction control because of the Senna film, but no traction control software was found on the B194. Not after Imola or any other race in 1994.

You bring up a very valid point regarding the black flag though. Despite the fact that Benetton were not informed of the penalty in time for it to be applied, which should mean it was void anyway, regardless of the fact that Schumacher was guilty of a breach of the rules, they were more than willing to serve the penalty. The problem was they weren't sure of what the penalty was. it seems the officials originally told them it was to be time added at the end of the race, which was changed to a stop-go. It was while this was being debated between the officials and the Benetton team (I think it was Walkinshaw and Villadelprat but I could be wrong) that Schumacher was black flagged. Why black flag him when discussions regarding the penalty were ongoing? The TEAM told Schumacher to stay out as they were talking to the officials, but the team WASN'T disqualified and banned, Schumacher was. Schumacher would be mad to ignore the instruction to stay out, as he was told the team were discussing the penalty with race control. The black flag was actually eventually withdrawn and contrary to what has been stated elsewhere in this topic, Schumacher served the stop-go. I think it's also telling that the stewards refused to disqualify Schumacher from the race, but got done over by the FIA, and I believe the RAC had to carry out an "investigation" as the Clerk of the Course's license was suspended for 1 year because of their part in the penalty fiasco. Despite this, Schumacher got a ban twice that of Mansell at Estoril even though the original offence was less severe, and he also didn't go on to take out a championship contender while being black flagged. It was all to keep the show going until the last few races of the season.

Even if Schumacher saw and ignored the flag all on his own, that should have been at most a one race ban.

 

[Il_leone]

The so called launch control software being just that software to control the amount of power being delivered to the back wheels during the start could be and probably was used as traction control during the race.

Yes Schumacher was told to stay out by Briatore which is why this thread is about him cheating and not Michael and quite rightly the team was disqualified and banned for two races.

A driver should never ignore flags and race control it is not Flavio's job to argue the toss with race control, it just shows his total arrogance.

What I find strange is that to this day Murrey Walker does not understand what Michael did wrong in fact when Schumacher took off like a scalded cat on the parade lap and overtook Hill the pole sitter Murrey was convinced the race had started.

He did when the replay was shown of the parade lap and said thats why Michael was given a penalty and you are not allowed to do that ( Michael - naughty boy!)

 

[Il_leone]

Schumacher's protestations why did he not see the flag was ala Mansell he could not see in the sun

Still the team saw it and should have just pulled him in knowing full well what happened to Mansell in previous years for ignoring black flag

 

[Il_leone]

I should add normally a black flag means you have 3 laps to pull into the pits . The fact is that Schumacher soldiered on for more than 3 laps would still have probably got him disqualified.

The only penalty more severe than a DQ is a race ban. Having a grid drop would not fit the punishment for ignoring a flag

The fact is that it was two penalties the team ignored

they sort of belatedly tried to serve the stop go penalty during a routine pitstop as the penalty spot use to be at the end of pitlane rather than your own pit was an attempt to sneak their way out

 

[Dario Resta]

He did when the replay was shown of the parade lap and said thats why Michael was given a penalty and you are not allowed to do that ( Michael - naughty boy!)

Has anyone else ever been done for the same offence, and is it still against the rules? I was under the impression you now only have to be in grid order at the end of the parade lap (obviously, or qualifying would be a waste of time, and the parade lap would be carnage).

 

[Mephistopheles]

I remember only a couple of years ago the subject of Michael's black flag incident came up between Murray and Brundle and murray said he didn't understand why Schumacher got black flagged and Martin had to explain it to him again.

I know I'm not imagining this.