Two Classes for F1

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
A massive change to the entire DNA of F1, potentially, came courtesy of Max Mosley today. And no, it wasn't about the points system.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73742

Essentially we will have two types of F1 team - those who are entitled to spend unlimited budgets with tight restrictions on revs, testing, windtunnel use etc.; and those who agree to restrict their budgets to £30m(!) and in return are allowed to run unlimited revs, moveable wings, more powerful KERS, can test whenever they want etc.

I am, frankly, horrified. One formula for Formula One - there should be the same rulebook for everyone. If teams can't raise the money to be competitive then they need to look at themselves, I'm afraid.

There are so many administrative problems with this proposal, too. How will the FIA measure the performance of the two categories of cars, and match them? How often will the rules be revised? WTCC fans will doubtless have plenty to say on this. Not to mention how the FIA are going to account for every penny spent by the capped teams, or close the thousands of loopholes they might use to get things for free/cheaply.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Couldn't agree more.
In the space of 10 minutes today the whole ethos and concept of F1 has been scrumpled up and chucked in the bin.

First we have the points/medals debacle which could potentially see a WDC with less than half the points of the runner up.
Now we have an even more outlandish proposal to have two tiers of teams/cars.

It's apparently too late to reverse the points change but hopefully this latest proposal will be withdrawn before it is implemented.

It will be interesting to hear what the team owners have to say of this.
I can't imagine any of them are too enamoured with the idea bearing in mind how much they have invested over the years.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
At this rate Max and Bernie will be proposing homologation so the likes of Caterham, DAX, and Westfield can join the sport.

But seriously as GM has said, how on earth will this be regulated? The last time an issue like this presented itself was during the final years of Turbo's when the powers that be tried to curb turbo power and give NA teams a greater chance. This also saw the short lived introduction of the Jim Clark/Colin Chapman cups. The result of these efforts was that the Mclaren team won all bar one race in 1988 and the winner of the Jim Clark cup was Jonathon Palmer who become in effect the 1988 Normally Aspirated World Drivers Champion after scoring (if memory serves) just 7 points.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Taking it further, if Ferrari and McLaren decide to abide by the £30m budget cap next year, what happens to all of their CFD equipment, software, wind tunnel, private test track, etc?

Surely all of that will have to go and they will have to start from scratch as if they were a brand new team?
Otherwise they will have an absolutely huge advantage over other teams who don't stick to the budget cap and new teams who do.

It's completely unworkable and hopefully the more it's looked into, the quicker everyone will come to realise that.
 

Boyle

Race Winner
Contributor
This could possibly be the biggest threat to Formula One's existence. One set of rules for all. Max needs to go.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
As a fool, who doesn't know anything like the supergenius Maximillian Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle knows; I am probably unable to comment on the salvation of F1 that Mr. Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle has suggested. However, I would have thought that this wonderful idea of his would be unsporting. It seems that Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle's big idea is to mess with cars mid-season to make races closer; and still award a Constructors' Championship. Of course, Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle's capacity to affect the Championship in its current form is severely limited, as shown by the fact that the 2006 Championship was won by Fernando Alonso, despite the removal of the mass-damper system on the Renault car, a move designed by Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle to win the Championship by Ferrari.

Hands up who would be surprised if TOP SECRET accounts books showing that McLaren-Mercedes has overspent the £30,000,000 was found in a photocopy shop in Woking, and faxed straight to the FIA. (via Maranello, of course!)

And what limit is there on donations from FIAT to Ferrari, or from Mercedes to McLaren etc.? And would any engine development on the Merc be charged to McLaren or Brawn GP/Force India?

As a layman, I cannot comprehend Mr Mosely-Einstein-Darwin-Newton-Aristotle's plan; oh, wait, no-one else can either. Good job its not because I am thick...!
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
If that proposal ever gets off the ground...

a) I'll eat my hat

and

b) it will be the F1's equivalent of.......



google "Jumping the shark" for an explanation ;)
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Brogan said:
Couldn't agree more.
In the space of 10 minutes today the whole ethos and concept of F1 has been scrumpled up and chucked in the bin.

First we have the points/medals debacle which could potentially see a WDC with less than half the points of the runner up.
Now we have an even more outlandish proposal to have two tiers of teams/cars.

It's apparently too late to reverse the points change but hopefully this latest proposal will be withdrawn before it is implemented.

It will be interesting to hear what the team owners have to say of this.
I can't imagine any of them are too enamoured with the idea bearing in mind how much they have invested over the years.
Now that FOTA have scuppered the ludicrous 'pseudo medal' idea, is the two class of F1 abandoned as well?
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
Isn't this just normal pervy Max behaviour though?

Say 30 million, the teams react in shock and then the haggling begins and it ends up at being 75/100million?

I'm still not putting my hat in the oven yet ;)
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
Is there any indication about what will and what won't be covered by the budget cap?

It's just a guess but I bet that an F1 teams wages would come to more than 30 million in a season and I imagine the work force will have something to say about pay cuts etc.

While I support the general prinicpal of budget restrictions and F1 has been crying out for more teams so increased grid sizes would also be great, I think it will be a total nightmare to police effectively and 30 million would seem way to little to run an effective team.

I assume the proposal for un-restricted development within the confines of the cap will still stand? This could open another can of worms. Un-restricted development on a limited budget can only lead to one thing and thats a drop in safety.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
The new rules for 2010 have been announced: 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship

In summary
26 car grid
No refuelling
No tyre warmers
£40m budget cap


Applications to compete in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship are to be submitted to the FIA during the period 22-29 May 2009. Teams must state in their application whether they wish to compete under cost-cap regulations.

The maximum number of cars permitted to enter the Championship has been increased to 26, two being entered by each competitor.

The FIA will publish the list of cars and drivers accepted on 12 June 2009, having first notified unsuccessful applicants.

Cost Cap Regulations
The cost cap for 2010 will be £40m per annum*. This figure will cover all team expenditure except:

  • Marketing and hospitality;
  • Remuneration for test or race drivers, including any young driver programmes;
  • Fines or penalties imposed by the FIA;
  • Engine costs (for 2010 only);
  • Any expenditure which the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the Championship;
  • Dividends (including any tax thereon) paid from profits relating to participation in the Championship.
* For the purposes of these Regulations, the financial year is 1 January to 31 December.

In addition to the payments which it already makes to the top ten teams in the Championship, Formula One Management, the commercial rights holder, has agreed to offer participation fees and expenses to the new teams. This includes an annual payment of US$10 million to each team plus free transportation of two chassis and freight up to 10,000 kg in weight (not including the two chassis) as well as 20 air tickets (economy class) for each round trip for events held outside Europe.

To enable these cars to compete with those from teams which are not subject to cost constraints, the cost-capped cars will be allowed greater technical freedom.

The principal technical freedoms allowed are:

1. Movable wings, front and rear.
2. An engine which is not subject to a rev limit.

The teams will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.

Changes applicable to all teams
It was confirmed that from 2010, refuelling during a race will be forbidden in order to save the costs of transporting refuelling equipment and increase the incentive for engine builders to improve fuel economy (to save weight).

It was also confirmed that tyre blankets will be banned and that the ban on other tyre-heating devices will be maintained.
 

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
"Any expenditure which the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the Championship"

LOL

That would be BMW's entire budget this year, wouldn't it?

Engines not included either. And it doesn't kick in until 1 January. By which time most of the design/development and a fair amount of the build costs for the 2010 cars will already have been spent.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Refuelling has been banned to "save the costs of transporting refuelling equipment and increase the incentive for engine builders to improve fuel economy (to save weight)". And not at all to ensure that Ferraris will not be trundling down the pitlane with fuel hoses attached. And surely they'll need to get some refuelling equipment at any rate in order to fill up after Practice and Q2. Then again what will be the point of running Q3 with race fuel anyway?

As for the two classes thing, when we're watching the Champion is the Champion and he'll hopefully be the guy who wins most points!
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
:givemestrength: :givemestrength: :givemestrength: :givemestrength: :censored: :censored: :givemestrength: :givemestrength:

I'm just lost for words really :(

I just can't see how it's going to work - I really hope this is Max's last throw of the dice and he does step down in November cos at a stroke he's ruined F1 for 2010 (what happens when the world climbs out of recession, will the cap increase?)

@ Bro

 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
GordonMurray said:
And it doesn't kick in until 1 January. By which time most of the design/development and a fair amount of the build costs for the 2010 cars will already have been spent.
Q: What measures are there to prevent teams spending money this year on a car that will compete under cost cap in 2010?

A: The teams must demonstrate that they have adhered to the spirit of the regulations and spend no more than 50% of the value of the 2010 cap on the development of the 2010 car (in 2009). Furthermore, there are limits on the value of stock of car parts which can be carried into 2010.

Q: How will you stop manufacturer backed teams from running hidden F1-related projects in their parent companies?

A: The question is actually asking ‘how will we stop manufacturer teams from cheating’. The principles of determining a fair market value for all activities which are undertaken for the benefit of a team (whether a manufacturer or not) are clearly set out in the Regulations.

No team would wish to be exposed as cheating, so we expect a healthy amount of self-policing. However, the rules are clear on this point, such activities must be declared and appropriately valued. Bear in mind the access that the costs commission and auditors have and their ability to compare reported costs across all cost capped teams.
So, absolutely no room for manoeuvre by the teams and no loopholes that they can exploit
 
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