Time For McLaren To Employ Team Orders "Soon"?

[landogeorgelewis1]

Whats the point in them supporting one driver over the other now when the championship is clearly over.

Plus if Mclaren were to favour one driver over the other then they would probably do it later in the season than this.

 

[Fenderman]

Although it's very low on the scales of probability, there is just a slim chance that Macca or Ferrari could yet win the drivers championship. They would improve their chances by giving a strategic priority to a "No.1 Driver" (arguably, Ferrari have already done so as is their tradition) because that would maximise the points haul of that driver. However, unforeseen errors, DNF's and penalties could easily wreck the strategy.

Having said that, with the lead Vettel and RBR have now, I do think it's Macca's only hope as the Ferrari improves and Massa plays support to Alonso. The only other scenario is if things get really tight at the end of the season and RBR replicate the over cautious approach that nearly cost Hamilton the title in 2008.

 

[Il_leone]

It's a straight forward question.

Given the points gap Vettel-to-Hamilton, do you think McLaren should put Button under orders fairly "soon"?

Button is now over 100 pts down which is 5 races and there are only 9 left ! so really this has to be in the back of the teams mind's unless Vettel has a series of bad races of no scores and Button wins at least 3 of the races to get himself back in

Then again last year Hamilton failed to make this count last year after winning Spa and throwing it away in Monza which allowed Button back into the title race

Also, how "soon"?

I totally understand that Button is only 1 win behind Hamilton and that can change next Sunday very quickly...but is Button winning the title at this stage any more "realistic" than Hamilton winning it?

What should McLaren philosophy be going into August?

Let the two "race"?

Focus only on wins (no matter who does the winning)?

OR

Try to win the World Championship?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Whats the point in them supporting one driver over the other now when the championship is clearly over.

Clearly Ferrari don't think it's over...so why should a team that's won three Grand Prix races (i.e. two more than Ferrari) think so?

Especially since one of their guys is closer to Vettel than Alonso is?

 

[Sarinaide]

McLaren have been fortunate particularly with reference to last year not needing team orders due to the performances of both drivers matching each other and both for most parts in with a title challenge.

This seasons results have been either brilliant or shocking and for the most part not so much driver error. Hamilton will seem the de facto number 1 but realistically it was hardly Buttons fault for his DNF's and could still easily lead Hamilton but for. I don't know, I guess it will be up to Jenson and whether he is happy to play Wingman/Goose, it is easier for McLaren to bank on Button doing a better job than what Massa is doing simply because Button achieves better results than Massa with 3 or so podiums vs nothing.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

We've still only just passed half time folks. Still plenty of time for lots to happen yet.

 

[RickD]

If Jenson were to be told he was number 2 from here on in this season, I think he would tell McLaren to stuff it where the sun doesn't shine. If not for the mistake of the right front wheel man in Silverstone and the errant part in Germany, he would still be ahead of Lewis in the championships. He probably would have finished ahead of Lewis in Silverstone as he was ahead of Massa at the time of his wheel falling off and in Germany he would have had a chance of finishing 4th as he can overtake, unlike Vettel, so he would easily have caught the battle for 4th in the closing stages.

So Ray, the only reason he is behind Lewis in the points is due to 2 DNFs in a row which were no fault of his own. Therefore, why should he accept a number 2 role, espacially as the DNFs could have happened to anyone and could still happen to anyone else in the title hunt?!?

Oh, and for someone who is so slow, its funny how when he went to McLaren, he got a win before his more illustrious team-mate..

 

[ramilas1]

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/are-...r-wdc-efforts-by-not-backing-a-number-1.2904/

Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Ummm...That was a different type of question! That was about dilluting their efforts in terms of strategy. This one is asking a specific question about putting Button under Orders now.

I love Prime Minister's Questions - you should check it out Ray - especially the first 10 minutes or so!!

There's these 2 blokes and one asks the other one a question, making sure he gets all his mates to cheer it.
The second one then has to find a way of not answering the question, but getting all his mates to cheer him.

Then the first bloke has to ask another question, but it really has to be the same question just all mixed up a bit.
The second bloke has his turn again, not answering, getting a bit angry and rude, but very polite at the same time.

This goes on for 4 or 5 times, which is really funny, before they stop and let a few others ask sensible questions, but by that time nearly everybody else is thoroughly pissed off fed up and can't be bothered listening any more.

 

[FB]

So Ray, the only reason he is behind Lewis in the points is due to 2 DNFs in a row which were no fault of his own. Therefore, why should he accept a number 2 role, especially as the DNFs could have happened to anyone and could still happen to anyone else in the title hunt?!?

I don't want to put words into Ray's mouth Rick (Lord alone knows, he's quite capable fo fighting his own corner ) but I think the point was looking objectively at the situation how should Button react. He himself has admit that his title chances are now virtually nil, regardless of the cause, so should McLaren tell him is job is now to support Hamilton as he (Lewis) still has a chance for the title or should he go to them and say that is how he feels things should be.

Going back to the point I made earlier, he's a racing driver so not given to playing second fiddle to anyone. But, Gilles Villeneuve was happy (?) to accept this position at Ferrari in 1979 even though he had a chance for the title as was quite obvioulsy a faster driver than Jody Sheckter.

I think the call on this is as much down to Jenson as it is to McLaren and will also very much depend on results in the next couple of races. I don't see that it woudl undermine Button's position at McLaren, it might even bring him closer to the team if he shows that he really is a team player.

 

[Galahad]

It seems harsh in the extreme to punish Jenson for his two most recent retirements, neither of which were his fault but were McLaren's. Were it not for those, he may even have more points than Lewis now.

 

[riskitall]

McLaren have been fortunate particularly with reference to last year not needing team orders due to the performances of both drivers matching each other and both for most parts in with a title challenge.

This seasons results have been either brilliant or shocking and for the most part not so much driver error. Hamilton will seem the de facto number 1 but realistically it was hardly Buttons fault for his DNF's and could still easily lead Hamilton but for. I don't know, I guess it will be up to Jenson and whether he is happy to play Wingman/Goose, it is easier for McLaren to bank on Button doing a better job than what Massa is doing simply because Button achieves better results than Massa with 3 or so podiums vs nothing.

well this is a big test for button now.i mean,lewis got 2 more DNF's last season and still finished a race win ahead of button.
can button with only 1 more dnf still finish with more points than lewis.?
also both drivers have had there fair share of bad luck this season which each driver has benefitted from.it hasnt been just button who's been unlucky.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

It seems harsh in the extreme to punish Jenson for his two most recent retirements, neither of which were his fault but were McLaren's. Were it not for those, he may even have more points than Lewis now.

Ok, so Button's retirements were unfortunate and not his fault, but you could equally well say that Mclaren's failures at Silverstone also cost Lewis more points, likewise their errors at Monaco. And you could argue that Jenson put Lewis out at Montreal and cost him a potential 25 points (or you could argue that Lewis put himself out).

So the situation is now what it is and I don't see it in terms of 'punishment'. Button now finds himself 107 points behind the leader and 25 behind his teammate. A win for Jenson at Hungary this weekend and a DNF for Lewis would put them level again, so the question of team orders would be irrelevant. But another win for Lewis and no points for Jenson would put the latter pretty much out of reach. Maybe at that point, particularly if Vettel also had a bad race at the Hungaroring to leave Lewis just 57 points behind with Jenson 132 adrift, Mclaren and/or Button might have to look at the question of whether to play a support role.

 

[Andyoak]

They should all race for the championship; Lewis, Button, Alonso, Massa, Webber...

1976 and Lauda was a shoo in for the championship. OK, so the likelyhood of Vettel having a catastrophic accident on or off track are very slim but we won't know until the end of the season. Until then they should all be racing to win. Team orders should only come into play when the points differential between the team's own drivers make it an obvious decision.

I forget who pointed out that under the old points system we wouldn't be having these discussions... it is only the big numbers the skew the perception of the situation.

 

[Brogan]

I forget who pointed out that under the old points system we wouldn't be having these discussions... it is only the big numbers the skew the perception of the situation.

Not really: http://f1.dg42.net/?show=points2003

Mark, Lewis and Fernando would still be over 3 wins behind.
Jenson over 4.
Felipe over 6.

Exactly the same as it is now.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

...Mark, Lewis and Fernando would still be over 3 wins behind [under the old points system]

So if any one of those three were to win the Hungarian GP and Vettel scored no points there, that individual would be just over two wins behind with seven races left. Not so very much, to my mind.

 

[teabagyokel]

I think we'd all appreciate it if posters didn't get personal with their rebuttals of points. So RickD's post has been edited and several tit-for-tat posts have been deleted.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

If not for the mistake of the right front wheel man in Silverstone and the errant part in Germany, he would still be ahead of Lewis in the championships.

Incorrect. Here's why:

He probably would have finished ahead of Lewis in Silverstone as he was ahead of Massa at the time of his wheel falling off.

"Probably" does't cut it. McLaren short-fueled for the race in England in anticipation of a wet race for longer. So Button finishing ahead of Hamilton is completely baseless. Hamilton was in fuel save mode for how many laps? So...how many laps in fuel save would Button have spent?

Can you answer?

...in Germany he would have had a chance of finishing 4th as he can overtake, unlike Vettel, so he would easily have caught the battle for 4th in the closing stages...

Yet more assumptions..."would have", "can", "unlike" "would easily have".

There's no guarantee that Massa/Vettel would have simply let Button by. None.

Nevertheless, even "if" Button hadn't had those DNFs, he still would be behind Hamilton's points.

He still would be the historically slower driver as determined by historical grid positions/qualifying performances.

In addition, Hamilton's non-driver-error DNFs while they've been together have been more costly than Button's. Notably Spain 2010, Hungary 2010. Yet, Hamilton's points tally is still superior to Button's.

Going forward - and that's what this thread is about - McLaren need to figure out which one of their two drivers to back fully because only one of them can be world champion. They definitely should not be giving up.

Ferrari certainly have not given up...and they actually have two fewer wins than McLaren this year...and their driver is further behind one of the McLaren drivers!

How many World Championship trophies do McLaren have since 1999?

Answer: 1. They have 1 trophy out of a possible 22. That's not a very good ratio over the past decade or so. Further, there's no guarantee what kind of car they'll build next year in relation to Ferrari, RBR and Mercedes...so they ought not to be giving up this year.

Button's already given up. Lewis left him bemused and speechless on Saturday afternoon and then on Sunday.

McLaren should keep fighting as you never know what can happen...and, in my opinion, Hamilton is the greater talent and their only realistic shot in 2011 at some much needed silverware.

McLaren can't be worried about Jenson's feelings at this half way stage. He's being paid to do a job and he works for a team. There's no "i" in "team"...so, as an employee...and as a 'team member', he should be able to handle the idea that, if it comes to it, then he should aid in the team winning at least one of the two titles in 2011.

It's that simple.

 

[RickD]

Oh and opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one Ray, doesn't make yours anymore right than anyone elses..

 

[Josh]

Hamilton was in fuel save mode for how many laps? So...how many laps in fuel save would Button have spent?

Can you answer?

Probably less because Button is the less agressive driver of the two.

Nevertheless, even "if" Button hadn't had those DNFs, he still would be behind Hamilton's points.

How can you know? He was ahead of Hamilton at the time of his DNF's. There's no guarantee that Button would have simply let Hamilton by.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Probably less because Button is the less agressive driver of the two.

He was ahead of Hamilton at the time of his DNF's.

So, Button would have been in fuel save mode for how long, then?

Button was legitimately ahead of Hamilton/Alonso/Webber at Germany? Really?

Jenson was annihilated by Lewis in Nurburgring qualifying. He wasn't anywhere close to winning in Germany.

So, you're saying had Jenson not had hydraulic failure, he would have won the German GP?

You serious?