I just wonder if perfection could ever be achieved in anything less than a world beater.
But you're right, Vettel made a meal of the 2010 title and I respect that championship more.
The importance of pole position.
- Thread starter Mephistopheles
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I just wonder if perfection could ever be achieved in anything less than a world beater.
But you're right, Vettel made a meal of the 2010 title and I respect that championship more.
Why does every conversation seem to degenerate into a 'Seb v Lewis v Nando' argument nowadays?
A bit obvious to say I know but pole position has always been important, giving the lead car an advantage to build over the rest of the pack. You'll be on the clean side of the track as well as giving yourself a nice psychological boost. Mind you, a bad start puts paid to this, so getting the clutch perfectly at the lights is just as important.
As has been said, you need to convert these flying laps into a consistent pace on a Sunday to make it worth anything.
A bit obvious to say I know but pole position has always been important, giving the lead car an advantage to build over the rest of the pack. You'll be on the clean side of the track as well as giving yourself a nice psychological boost. Mind you, a bad start puts paid to this, so getting the clutch perfectly at the lights is just as important.
As has been said, you need to convert these flying laps into a consistent pace on a Sunday to make it worth anything.
Thats not what I'm saying. I just don't understand why Vettel should be criticised for being faster than everyone else when it matters. I really can't get that.
I'm saying it is possible to win without the 'love of the team' with the Alonso/Prost example. As for the other example, it shows that, even then, there is a skill in gaining the 'love of the team' and keeping it.
I'm not going to change your opinions, and you're not going to change mine. I maintain that Sebastian Vettel was a huge portion of the difference between Red Bull and McLaren last season.
And lastly, I ultimately maintain that any driver who wins Grands Prix from flag-to-lights having plonked it on pole on Saturday every week will not be considered by some to be a great driver, despite the fact that over that weekend he literally was inch perfect, however far clear of any reference points he was. And I think thats unfair. And quite frankly, that the name on the front of that car for large portions of last season was Sebastian Vettel is neither here nor there.
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
The main reason I think Webber was massively under achieving last season is because, it is easier to lose time than make it up. If Webber was putting in standard laps it'd be nearly impossible for Seb to average 0.414 seconds faster in qualifying, the biggest gap amongst front runners last season.
I do have to admit though that winning counts for a lot and it is down to the other drivers to prove they are fasting than Seb, but I really don't think they were given a chance to do so last season. Hopefully this year shall be more revealing.
I do have to admit though that winning counts for a lot and it is down to the other drivers to prove they are fasting than Seb, but I really don't think they were given a chance to do so last season. Hopefully this year shall be more revealing.
I have said it before - Sebastian Vettel reputation suffers from success syndrome. Schumacher was the same. If he does well then it must be the car, if not then it is his fault.
He can't help it if the Red Bull has been the best car on the grid for the last 30 months - but he has made the most of the opportunity to win back-to-back titles, last year's being utterly dominant. How far he finished ahead of his teammate speaks volumes for how good he was last year (Mark Webber is still a top class driver). You could say the same about Alonso trouncing Massa but it is pretty clear to me that Felipe has not been the quality driver that he was before that accident.
Like teabag has said, you shouldn't fault the guy for achieving an impeccable season and people who doubt his skill as a driver are being a little blinkered. He may not be as good an overtaker (mind you, his pass at Monza was brilliant) or as good a racer as some but who needs to be when you're that far ahead?
Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject - move it to the Vettel thread or start a new one.
He can't help it if the Red Bull has been the best car on the grid for the last 30 months - but he has made the most of the opportunity to win back-to-back titles, last year's being utterly dominant. How far he finished ahead of his teammate speaks volumes for how good he was last year (Mark Webber is still a top class driver). You could say the same about Alonso trouncing Massa but it is pretty clear to me that Felipe has not been the quality driver that he was before that accident.
Like teabag has said, you shouldn't fault the guy for achieving an impeccable season and people who doubt his skill as a driver are being a little blinkered. He may not be as good an overtaker (mind you, his pass at Monza was brilliant) or as good a racer as some but who needs to be when you're that far ahead?
Anyway, that's all I have to say on the subject - move it to the Vettel thread or start a new one.
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
I don't fault the guy, I just want to stop people getting too carried away. There is not enough evidence yet for people to start making assumptions that Vettel is unbeatable. Alonso won back to back championships. Hamilton almost did in his first 2 seasons, yet neither have reached those heights since.
That's what I'm talkin' about.
Still?
176 starts, 7 wins, 9 pole positions.
Vettel has him beat him on wins and poles last season alone, never mind over 176 races.
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
Well you are the voice of reason. 
J
johnnoble1990
Guest
All in the last 3 years as well. Webber had only 2 podiums prior to that, and highest championship position was 10th. That said, I think last year Webber just had a dire year by his standards. His starts were terrible, qualifying he was beaten even by Lewis, who clearly had a slower car. I think if the tyres suit him better he may surprise people yet.
Some more stats (cos I was in a boring TC at work). Here is the number of poles per season since 2002 for the drivers champion and the constructors champions.
Year WC Races WDC Poles
WCC Team
Poles
2002 Schumacher 17 7 10
2003 Schumacher 16 6 9
2004 Schumacher 18 8 12
2005 Alonso 19 6 7
2006 Alonso 18 6 7
2007 Raikkonen 17 3 9
2008 Hamilton 18 7 7
2009 Button 17 4 5
2010 Vettel 19 10 15
2011 Vettel 19 15
18
Sorry if it's a bit crappy, it's a cut and paste from excel.
Brawn have the worst "Poles to Championships" ratio for Constructors and Raikkonen the worst for drivers. At the end of the day though they each won the title. What this tells me is that Red Bull AND Vettel have been getting better and better each year to the point where they wiped the floor with everyone in 2011. Does this make Vettel the best driver on the grid? Objectively yes, subjectively no. What we have seen is the best car/driver combination since 1992.
Red Bull may have built the best car but Vettel still had to pedal it round and anyone who suggests that his championship success is in any denigrated by having the best car is simply delusional. I would suggest that in 99% of all F1 Championship the best driver in the best car has won, perhaps with the exception of 1958 and some of the results in the early 80's where turbo cars consumed themselves with alarming frequency.
Year WC Races WDC Poles
WCC Team
Poles
2002 Schumacher 17 7 10
2003 Schumacher 16 6 9
2004 Schumacher 18 8 12
2005 Alonso 19 6 7
2006 Alonso 18 6 7
2007 Raikkonen 17 3 9
2008 Hamilton 18 7 7
2009 Button 17 4 5
2010 Vettel 19 10 15
2011 Vettel 19 15
18
Sorry if it's a bit crappy, it's a cut and paste from excel.
Brawn have the worst "Poles to Championships" ratio for Constructors and Raikkonen the worst for drivers. At the end of the day though they each won the title. What this tells me is that Red Bull AND Vettel have been getting better and better each year to the point where they wiped the floor with everyone in 2011. Does this make Vettel the best driver on the grid? Objectively yes, subjectively no. What we have seen is the best car/driver combination since 1992.
Red Bull may have built the best car but Vettel still had to pedal it round and anyone who suggests that his championship success is in any denigrated by having the best car is simply delusional. I would suggest that in 99% of all F1 Championship the best driver in the best car has won, perhaps with the exception of 1958 and some of the results in the early 80's where turbo cars consumed themselves with alarming frequency.
Stating the obvious is not criticism.
The RB7 was the class of the field. Consequently, I temper my superlatives when dealing with the dopplekaiser.
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
Adrian Newey thought pole position important enough that the RB7 was optimised for Q3 at the expense of all-out race pace. And just look at the result.
The RB7 had some substantial flaws, and if it ever was the "class of the field," it was only because RBR had drivers who exploited its strengths and drove around its weaknesses.
Vettel outperformed Webber because he'd more thoroughly gone to school on the new Pirellis, and he'd learnt a trick which Webber never got the hang of for squaring the slow-speed corners so his car was pointed down the following straightaway (and giving it the beans) sooner.
The RB7 had some substantial flaws, and if it ever was the "class of the field," it was only because RBR had drivers who exploited its strengths and drove around its weaknesses.
Vettel outperformed Webber because he'd more thoroughly gone to school on the new Pirellis, and he'd learnt a trick which Webber never got the hang of for squaring the slow-speed corners so his car was pointed down the following straightaway (and giving it the beans) sooner.
Come again? Sure, it was 4-5 MPH down on top speed at most circuits, but we all know that time is made up in the corners and under braking. Other than that, I'm struggling to think of anything remotely resembling a "flaw".
Yeah, that "Advanced Rubber Construction 401" class that Pirelli offers at their factory really paid dividends.
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
Beyond the DRS not being designed to facilitate overtaking, and a front wing that was less tolerant than most of dirty air (remember the incident with Button at Spa in 2010?), the Renault lump is known to be down on the order of 15 BHP to Merc and Ferrari power. It also is known the RB7's CURSE was inoperative roughly half the time during races. Another deficit of, intermittently, as much as 60 BHP. What isn't known outside the RBR camp is how powerful it was (or wasn't) when fully functional. The rumour that Red Bull only were running a "mini-CURSE" was circulating before Bahr ...I mean Melbourne.Come again? Sure, it was 4-5 MPH down on top speed at most circuits, but we all know that time is made up in the corners and under braking. Other than that, I'm struggling to think of anything remotely resembling a "flaw".
Yeah, that "Advanced Rubber Construction 401" class that Pirelli offers at their factory really paid dividends.
Vettel was the only top-tier driver who participated in Pirelli's (2012 season) tyre testing after the 2011 race at Abu Dhabi, investing two track days in boning up on the new tyres months before AlHamButtMacher ever touched one to tarmac (and before commencing his celebration of his new-won WDC). He was the only driver who visited the factory in Milan. As important as any pure knowledge he might have learnt there was the rapport he no doubt was establishing with the Pirelli staff. Which was especially evident in Spa, where Vettel struggled on Friday in FP1&2. Then he had an audience with the Pirelli boffins Friday eve and FP3 Saturday am saw Vettel back at the top of the timing sheet.
"I think sometimes people underestimate all those little details. When you add them up, they probably do make the difference for some drivers. We were impressed when he came to see us, and I think it gave us a little insight into what he is like as a driver. What he did with us, he clearly does that in all areas that he operates in. The only other driver that asks us a lot of questions is another German – who is a bit older with quite a few more championships under his belt. We found that interesting. It is like seeing the master and the protege at work.
"He came to our engineers to speak to them [at Spa]. He was trying to explain what he was feeling, and getting feedback from us on what we thought was going on. And as you know, they worked overnight to try and put things right, and the result was very clear to see. He has that intensity of focus and dedication that drives him to want to understand more, even though he will get exactly the same tyres as everyone else..."
"...Whenever you work with the best, there is always a lot to do with the level of detail. At Pirelli we've had the privilege of working with Sebastien Loeb and other rallying greats, and these guys don't sleep at night thinking about how to improve things.
"Vettel has picked that approach up from someone, or he was born like that. There could be a temptation from people when they get to F1 to think that they have made it, but the reality is he hasn't stopped – and he probably will not be happy until he has got seven titles under his belt, like the master…"
-- Paul Hembery, Pirelli Director of Motorsport
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Apologies, couldn't resist
I think we only need to look at last year's race in Spain and the closing battle between Lewis' McLaren and Vettel's Red Bull as a perfect case study of how any defecit the Red Bull had in it's armoury was nullified by the advantages it had elsewhere.
It is the nature of motor racing that compromises exist and that cars have different characteristics. Whatever Red Bull's weak points were, when totted up along side it's strengths it was still THE car to be in last year.
It is the nature of motor racing that compromises exist and that cars have different characteristics. Whatever Red Bull's weak points were, when totted up along side it's strengths it was still THE car to be in last year.
On the few circuits where this might have mattered, Newey brought one-off packages that compensated quite well.
I'd be singing Seb's praises to the hills if I was Hembery too. Pretty good PR for the firm.
Viscount - 40.16% of all World Championship Grands Prix have been won from pole.
Button has won only 5 races from pole out of his 14 victories - which I think its fair to say makes him the most likely winner from not-pole of the current grid.
You don't have to sit on pole to win in F1, but it definitely helps.
Button has won only 5 races from pole out of his 14 victories - which I think its fair to say makes him the most likely winner from not-pole of the current grid.
You don't have to sit on pole to win in F1, but it definitely helps.
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