The importance of pole position.

[RasputinLives]

Hmm I do wish we could see Vettel in a car of similar speed to the McLaren or Ferrari of the last couple of years, to see how he really stacks up in a different situation to just running off into the lead. I honestly think he would struggle, however I don't think he's as weak at overtaking as everyone assumes, especially when it is often said that the Red Bull has more trouble than the average car in turbulent air and how Red Bulls usually have slow straight line speeds which surely must hinder overtaking attempts.

I agree that it would be interesting and I think you make a great point about the Red Bull struggling on straight line speed and its super aero package going a bit skewif when following other cars. The thing with Vettel that has made him so much stronger than all the other drivers since the later half of the 2011 season is that he's accepted his weaknesses and made dam sure that his competitors haven't had the chance to take advantage of them. Sometimes he cracks when pressured. Solution. Make sure no one gets near enough to apply the pressure by put in some blinding early laps and then pacing the opposition. Sometimes he gets caught up in silly incidents in the pack. Solution. Make sure he's never in the pack by sticking it on the front row every race weekend.

Alonso and Lewis could certainly learn from that.

 

[Brogan]

Alonso and Lewis could certainly learn from that.

If they had a Red Bull they probably would

 

[Bill Boddy]

....Alonso and Lewis could certainly learn from that.

It seems likely that they already know that.

 

[RasputinLives]

If they had a Red Bull they probably would

I think if they were with Red Bull they probably would. Seems to me that both teams don't seem to consider either of their drivers weak spots when going for tactics. How many times have we seen Mclaren try a strategy that puts Lewis right there in the pack just queing up for his next collision with Massa? and how many times have we seen Ferrari go for tactics that leave Alonso frustrated and losing his cool behind a slower car?

I might be wrong here but apart from one race where Seb had to do a bit of overtaking I can't remember Red Bull running any race strategies that ever put Sebastian into the pack or into a position where he had to overtake to make the strategy work. Yes I'm sure you'll say thats easy to do with a Red Bull and I'm sure it is easier but its still a point worth making.

 

[Brogan]

Red Bull/Vettel don't have to resort to sometimes risky tactics such as short fuelling, saving a set of race tyres, etc. so the comparison isn't valid.

Put any one of the top three drivers in a Red Bull and no doubt they would enjoy similar success and ease as Vettel did last year.

Especially with Webber as a team mate.

 

[RasputinLives]

Red Bull/Vettel don't have to resort to sometimes risky tactics such as short fuelling, saving a set of race tyres, etc. so the comparison isn't valid.

Put any one of the top three drivers in a Red Bull and no doubt they would enjoy similar success and ease as Vettel did last year.

Especially with Webber as a team mate.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that front Bro - I'm not denying a title would have been 95% odds on if the Red Bull was piloted by Hamilton, Alonso or Button but in such a dominant way? I don't think so. To me Vettel has a consistancy the others don't have. I'm not saying when all are on form he is the best just that he produces his form far more than the others. Since the last third of the 2010 season he's had one dip in form which was GB and Germany in 2011 and he came 2nd and 4th in them. I just don't think the others can pull off that sort of consistent form.

 

[johnnoble1990]

How many times have we seen Mclaren try a strategy that puts Lewis right there in the pack just queing up for his next collision with Massa?

I actually more get annoyed by the opposite. I get annoyed at Mclaren trying to make Hamilton conserve tyres in races, when clearly a more aggressive strategy plays to his strengths. There is a big difference between putting Lewis in a position where he can overtake and putting him in a position where he has to overtake.

Does one messy season really change so many people's opinions on a driver? There have been more seasons than just 2011. I have to agree with Brogan that Lewis and Alonso would both fly to championships in the Red Bull. When not stuck behind a slower car, both still have shown they have the pace over last 2 years.

 

[johnnoble1990]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that front Bro - I'm not denying a title would have been 95% odds on if the Red Bull was piloted by Hamilton, Alonso or Button but in such a dominant way? I don't think so. To me Vettel has a consistancy the others don't have. I'm not saying when all are on form he is the best just that he produces his form far more than the others. Since the last third of the 2010 season he's had one dip in form which was GB and Germany in 2011 and he came 2nd and 4th in them. I just don't think the others can pull off that sort of consistent form.

Again, we are talking of one season here. Can we really judge Vettel on one season? 2010, when he didn't have things so easy in terms of competition, he had a very up and down season.

 

[RasputinLives]

Again, we are talking of one season here. Can we really judge Vettel on one season? 2010, when he didn't have things so easy in terms of competition, he had a very up and down season.

I think you need to look at that again John. He had a pretty awful first half of the season where he's make errors and was having mechanical failures but come Japan onwards he's never been off it. 23 Grand Prixs, 14 wins, 6 podiums and 2 retirements - that includes a streak of 11 podiums. None of the others have come close to a record like this even when they had the dominant car.

As for 'people forget its only one season' it was only one season before people decided Lewis Hamilton was up there as the best driver in the world. It only took Jenson Button one season to turn everyones opinion from F1 reject to be up there with the top drivers. Lets aalso go back and remember whilst he was a promising youngster Alonso was by no means rated as 'one of the best in the world' come the start of 2005 - in fact a lot of people said Fisi was gonna stuff him. A season is a long time and F1 is a quick changing world.

 

[johnnoble1990]

Well we will see. You certainly can't take anything away from Vettel in terms of getting the job done, but the car has been so good it will be much more interesting test to see how he gets on when pole position isn't a slam dunk. People always say, if you put Hamilton/Alonso in Red Bull they'd win the title, but a more interesting thought would be what if Vettel was in the Ferrari or Mclaren. Could he really achieve anymore than Alonso did last year?

 

[RasputinLives]

If Vettel had been in a Mclaren I'd have put money on them having more pole positions in 2011 than they actualy did. How many times were we all set for a Mclaren pole position only for it to be snatched away by a top lap from Seb last year?

How he would have done in race shape we can only speculate but I still stand by the fact Vettel has shown more consistancy than the guys around him with the possible exception of Alonso in 2005 form.

 

[Brogan]

Before the Red Bull became the package to beat, a lot of people more or less expected Hamilton to grab pole at the very end of qualifying, and a lot of the time he did.

So personally I'm not convinced that if it was Vettel in the McLaren and Hamilton in the Red Bull that the results would be much different.

As with all such discussions though, we'll never know.
Not unless there's a parallel universe somewhere with a much happier Hamilton driving for Red Bull and a not so successful Vettel driving for McLaren...

 

[johnnoble1990]

How he would have done in race shape we can only speculate but I still stand by the fact Vettel has shown more consistancy than the guys around him with the possible exception of Alonso in 2005 form.

Completely agree, but then again that was the last time a world class driver had a completely dominant car, bar Button in the first half of 2009.

One of the things that I think gets forgotten in these debates is how minute the gaps between truly world class drivers will be. You put Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel in a Red Bull and the average gap would be unlikely to exceed 0.1 seconds over a long period of time. This is why I think people have to accept that the dominance in qualifiying is mainly due to the car, because it is impossible for Vettel to be regularly 0.5 seconds faster than the 2nd best drivers at qualifiying, which is Hamilton or Alonso.

 

[teabagyokel]

The Red Bull was marginally faster than the McLaren, at most races. Marginally. In a truly dominant car, the second driver would not need team orders to finish third in the Championship. Webber was second twice and a winner in Brazil. That is three one-twos. That is not only fewer than they managed in 2010, it is fewer than they managed in 2009. The last true dominator, the F2004, scored eight one-twos; the F2002 scored nine, the FW14B scored six with Patrese in the second car.

Vettel was the difference. Mark Webber is not that poor. Sorry.

 

[KekeTheKing]

If Vettel had been in a Mclaren I'd have put money on them having more pole positions in 2011 than they actualy did.

Is there any evidence for that whatsoever?

How many times were we all set for a Mclaren pole position only for it to be snatched away by a top lap from Seb last year?

To me that was what made it obvious that the RB7 was the class of the field by some margin. Seb rarely had to push in practices and the early stages of Qualifying. Lewis was constantly pushing the McLaren which led people to believe they were close to being on par with Red Bull. When Vettel needed a few tenths, the RB7 had them in reserve.

Mark Webber is not that poor.

I'm not sure. Sadly we'll never know.

 

[teabagyokel]

To me that was what made it obvious that the RB7 was the class of the field by some margin. Seb rarely had to push in practices and the early stages of Qualifying. Lewis was constantly pushing the McLaren which led people to believe they were close to being on par with Red Bull.

Sorry Keke, thats wrong. When I look at my expectations, I factor in Lewis pushing a car. What seals the deal for me is Button beating Webber, because I believe that Button (with his well-documented reliance on a car that is 'on-the-rails') is a far better yardstick than the inconsistent Hamilton to where a car's true performance lies on raceday.

The difference is Vettel. Webber is not poor enough to lose a Championship to Button in a car as superior to the McLaren as you're all suggesting.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Hmm. I'm not buying that TBY. I think that Vettel's performance over Mark was amplified by a great number of factors. Although a gulf in talent was surely one of them, I don't think we can discount the fact that the strategy, engineering and love in the team is all geared towards Vettel at Red Bull now. Add them all up and you also give Seb a massive psychological advantage too, which can only then further add to his relative performance whilst doing the opposite for Mark.

It's not as black and white as you are making out.

The difference may well be Vettel, but you must also consider the environment and circumstances that have allowed Vettel to thrive.

 

[KekeTheKing]

The gulf between Vettel and Webber is MASSIVE. Brazil displayed this perfectly.

Either Red Bull had to lie to their 2x WDC to get Webber a win, or Seb was able to stay in P2 with a seriously stricken car.

Both situations speak to the utter dominance of the RB7 chassis.

 

[teabagyokel]

The Red Bull was well clear at Interlagos, granted. McLaren haven't run well at Interlagos for some time, for some reason.

They had to lie to Vettel to give Webber a win. OK. But they couldn't have done that at any other Grand Prix in 2011, should they have wanted to. That speaks of a chassis that was not utterly dominant.

You're all talking like it was ever a second or so clear. It wasn't. Ever. That does not usually result in 11 wins and 15 pole positions.

Its a sad situation that if a driver ever hits perfection, we all shout that the car was faster, whereas its the driver who is acclaimed if they made mistakes and had to recover from them.

Hmm. I'm not buying that TBY. I think that Vettel's performance over Mark was amplified by a great number of factors. Although a gulf in talent was surely one of them, I don't think we can discount the fact that the strategy, engineering and love in the team is all geared towards Vettel at Red Bull now. Add them all up and you also give Seb a massive psychological advantage too, which can only then further add to his relative performance whilst doing the opposite for Mark.

Well, we need to question why that is, don't we? And how other drivers have managed to lose themselves similar positions.

And I notice that Fernando Alonso finished ahead of Lewis Hamilton at the 2007 Belgian Grand Prix, a week after Spygate, when his team had no love at all for him. And that Alain Prost won the 1989 title despite his team manager protesting results in favour of his team-mate.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Well, we need to question why that is, don't we? And how other drivers have managed to lose themselves similar positions.

And I notice that Fernando Alonso finished ahead of Lewis Hamilton at the 2007 Belgian Grand Prix, a week after Spygate, when his team had no love at all for him. And that Alain Prost won the 1989 title despite his team manager protesting results in favour of his team-mate.

I don't see your point. Where did Lewis Hamilton and Prost get injected into the conversation?

Are you using those as examples of Webber being weak in comparison to Alonso and Prost? If so, you have kind of killed your own argument. You were saying that Vettel was the difference, but now you are saying that Webber was the difference.