The importance of pole position.

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
No one ever won a world championship in qualifying dude.

Chandhock = above him in the championship despite not doing a whole season

Petrov scored double the points Senna did and your quali stats are off coz Senna was in front of him on the grid for one race due to having a lower number on his car when neither ran in session 3!

Oh and Senna only missed one Grand Prix when he was replaced by Yamamoto - he never was replaced by Klien but went up against hin 3 times and lost 2-1

People always have excuses for Bruno but when you come down to it - greats don't get out qualified by Sakon Yamamoto


I would suggest that Sebastian Vettel won a championship in qualifying. Very recently.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
No Sebastian Vettel won the World Championship by actually winning the Grand Prix's. I know what you're hinting at but there is a big difference between sticking a car on pole and bringing it home for the win.

for example

Gerhad Berger - Pole Positons = 12: Championships = 0
Mark Webber - Pole Positions = 9: Championships = 0
Rubens Barrichello - Pole positions = 14: Championships = 0
David Coulthard - Pole Positions = 12: Championships = 0
Juan Pablo Montoya - Pole Positions = 13: Championships = 0


Meanwhile

Jenson Button - Pole Positions = 7: Championships = 1
Keke Rosberg - Pole Positions = 5: Championships = 1

There is a big difference between sticking it on pole and taking the chequed flag. Sebastian Vettel won the championship last year by making good starts and brilliant first laps and then pacing himself in order than he never fell into the chasing packs DRS zone. Simple as.

Anyway its all academic. Bruno had one exceptional qualifying session when he got 7th in Belgium - you can possibley throw in his 9th place in Brazil the rest he was just did what the car allowed him. Yes he got in the top 10 in Italy but he was half a second slower than Petrov in all the sessions. His HRT qualifying was never anything special and lets face it he's rated and romantercised by people who would love Ayrton's nephew to be a success - and whilst I agree it would be a lovely story I'm afraid he's shown nothing to say its going to happen.

I also find it interesting that people use Senna's qualifying record to how his potential whilst his team-mate Pastor Maldonado managed to get a blooming awful Williams in the top 10 at least 3 times, he actually won GP2 and he scored 1 point in the 9th place Williams compared to Senna's 2 points in the 5th place Lotus/Renault is viewed as a pay driver who doesn't deserve his seat.

I would love to happily be proved wrong and Bruno turns out to be Fangio Schumacher and Clark all rolled into one but don't kid yourself, at the moment the only reason young Senna is in that seat is the cash he has behind him and the publicity it brings.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
No Sebastian Vettel won the World Championship by actually winning the Grand Prix's. I know what you're hinting at but there is a big difference between sticking a car on pole and bringing it home for the win.

for example

Gerhad Berger - Pole Positons = 12: Championships = 0
Mark Webber - Pole Positions = 9: Championships = 0
Rubens Barrichello - Pole positions = 14: Championships = 0
David Coulthard - Pole Positions = 12: Championships = 0
Juan Pablo Montoya - Pole Positions = 13: Championships = 0

I'm pretty sure that none of the drivers you have mentioned scored all of those pole positions in a single championship year. That being the case pretty much nullifies the weight of this as a valid response. There is a little tongue-in-cheek in my initial statement, so please don't take it absolutely literally. However, I do stand by the implied sentiment.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
I'm pretty sure that none of the drivers you have mentioned scored all of those pole positions in a single championship year. That being the case pretty much nullifies the weight of this as a valid response. There is a little tongue-in-cheek in my initial statement, so please don't take it absolutely literally. However, I do stand by the implied sentiment.

Well however tongue-in-cheek it was Ninja in my opinion if you think Vettels championship was just down to his pole positions then I think you've missed a trick and are doing the poor lad down. Sebastian Vettel can judge his own pace and his rivals pace like no driver I have ever seen and thats something the car can't do.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
Well however tongue-in-cheek it was Ninja in my opinion if you think Vettels championship was just down to his pole positions then I think you've missed a trick and are doing the poor lad down. Sebastian Vettel can judge his own pace and his rivals pace like no driver I have ever seen and thats something the car can't do.

I wouldn't disagree, but take those pole positions away from Seb and I think you'd have take a lot of the race wins away too. Sure, pole is only half the job and I'm quite aware of that but it was Seb and Red Bull's ability to stick it on pole every Saturday that was undoubtably the most decisive contributing factor to last year's success.
 

Viscount

Pole Sitter
Contributor
I wouldn't disagree, but take those pole positions away from Seb and I think you'd have take a lot of the race wins away too. Sure, pole is only half the job and I'm quite aware of that but it was Seb and Red Bull's ability to stick it on pole every Saturday that was undoubtably the most decisive contributing factor to last year's success.
Well Vettel still managed to win in Barcelona and Korea without starting on pole. Looking at last season, only 9 of the 19 races (47%) were won from pole. Vettel didn't win his 11 races because he was on pole, his pole positions are just an indication of how fast the car was, a car that he was consistently able to get the most out of in races which won him the championship.
 

ExtremeNinja

Karting amateur
Contributor
We have derailed the thread, but I think you are all taking my comments a little bit seriously. What started as a little throwaway comment really seems to have got a few of your backs up. I mostly agree with you and I have no interest in denigrating any of Vettel's achievements last year. Relax everybody. I am just saying what pretty much everyone else has been saying; that Red Bull's defining strategy in 2011 was to get thier main man on pole and out in front to control the race. It was a good strategy and it worked well for them, most of the time. On some occasions, obviously, it didn't work out or they had to change tact but I think hat Red Bull's approach to the 2011 WDC was pretty evident for all to see.

Let's get these posts moved to the appropriate thread and let's not let over defensive of drivers when nobody is actually attacking them. A bit of perspective...?
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
Of course qualifying matters when it comes to race wins granted it doesn't necessarily have to be pole every time to win a championship but being on pole or somewhere at the sharp end of the grid certainly helps, drivers have won races by starting at the back of the grid but nobody and I mean nobody ever won a championship by starting last every time.

If Vettel was told to start plumb last every race does anyone honestly think he would have won the championship? A bit extreme I know but come on
 
In this era of a dearth of overtaking possibilities and aero madness then it is absolutely spot on that races and WCs are best 'won' by getting on pole and controlling everything from there

I think the statistics on how many pole sitters win races on most of today's tracks are the clue

Not to detract from Vettels abilities, but he has said himself he would prefer a boring race from pole

Pole allows you to stay away from the Massas and Maldonados and other desperadoes

Yes, Seb still has to work hard and sometimes weave thru the field but we can say pole has won him the Wc, could he still have won not on pole each time? Possible and maybe probably but that's not the question
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
A boring race from pole speaks volumes about Vettel I have done some racing, Karting, stock car and rallying but being in the lead is tedious its boring personally I prefered to race not cruise to the finish winning is far sweeter when if is hard fought.

Somebody saying they would prefer a boing race from pole rather than being in the thick of the action, I don't know I'm sorry but there is something very wrong with that, It says all I care about is getting records not the racing. It's just wrong.
 
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