Current Sir Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton MBE

A place to put all the posts from all the other threads primarily but love him or hate him, and even for the indifferent amongst us this is the place to discuss the marmite that is Lewis Hamilton, to learn a thing or two about his rise, talk about those controversial, genius or mad moments and something that i am bemused by, the recent articles that suggest something quite different to my perception of what's going on. Any experiences of meeting LH?

Brundle had to write a Lewis Hamilton article recently and in my tweets (which were probably ignored) I asked him to talk about LH the driver not LH the personality. It seems that you can't have one without the other.

So as a starter for ten, here is a fairly recent LH article. Posts should not be limited to this link but it can get some discussion going. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13755883.stm

The only banned topic as it is clearly ridiculous involves these four things "Glock" "2008" "Brazil" "conspiracy"

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Exceptional success, like runner up in first year, winner in second, trashed 2 reigning WCs in the same car

The kind of magic that guarantees one a fanatical following, the kind of magic that Whitmarsh claims doesn't exist (' we came third, third is great, it's better than fourth, there is no magic, we have to look into the issues and try resolve them whist understanding that only one team can come first and it's just not us')

 

[Josh]

Trashed?

 

[Josh]

I know what you mean, but I wouldn't call being on equal points and beating someone by one win (or one second place, I'm not sure) "trashed".

But maybe that just depends on you point of view

 

[teabagyokel]

I don't think the pointed nationality reference is required.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Good job he was never beaten by even more points than his victories over both team mates added together.

 

[teabagyokel]

Now it only counts to beat your team-mate when there is a number 2 on the front of your car, does it? You must love Alain Prost...

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Well because of the importance of the car in the equation it's hard to benchmark drivers. However your teammate in the same car is a standard. Also though, the quality of your teammate counts. A reigning WC will by definition have set the standard the year before and will always be the favourite given the car

So beating a reigning WC in the same car twice is a pretty strong measure of greatness

No surprise then that this feat is not common at all and the only ones to have achieved it apart from LH is Prost, considered by many as one of the top 3 drivers ever

Apart from Prost I can't think of many other drivers with no2 stickers to do this twice

 

[teabagyokel]

Hamilton and Prost, I believe, are the only two to do it - but I do stand to be corrected - but it is not a true measure of greatness as many of the great drivers never got that opportunity. And the success of Hamilton defeating two #1s is not enough to do what you are attempting to do, and brush his defeat to Button under the carpet.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Fair enough TBY

Just pointing out that his beating of two #1s says more about his claim to greatness than the amount of points he lost to his teammate says about negating that claim, especially considering he wasn't at his best I.e. the current WC

Of course this is just an exercise in interpretation of the stats, to support my earlier statement that he had the kind of early statistical only matched by Prost success that will cause envy and suspicion amongst those who would look to seek some kind of retribution for this perceived affront,

Not just LH, any sports and who has risen quickly and experienced ultra success early tend to attract criticism from those who feel he has not deserved it and needs to be taken down a peg or two (or a hundred)

So in answer to the original question that's why I think LH gets their backs up for so many

 

[The Artist.....]

I honestly don't know where this myth of drivers being always at their best in the year (or just after the year) they won the world championship. I mean, let's make comparisons... If we assume that Raikonnen was at his best just after he won his world championship, then that would mean that Massa was better than him when he was at his best...

Furthermore, it is a combination of driver/car that leads to a win of a WDC. Therefore, whenever a world champion moves to a new team, they are not going to be in quite the comfort zone they were in before - why do you think that history is not littered with champions who have moved to new teams and instantly won the championship elsewhere! - in fact the list can be written with 1 name - Fangio!

 

[Cookinflatsix]

There will always be anomalies, like the WC breaking his leg etc

But LH has done it twice, and both times to WCs with considerably more experience than himself,

with this David vs Gloliath aspect to it, and steering back on topic, this type of early success could explain why some have so much vitriol for the guy. Without turning this into another everyone hates LH debacle I think the question asked about why LH attracts this disproportionate criticism is fairly answered

 

[The Artist.....]

Well because of the importance of the car in the equation it's hard to benchmark drivers. However your teammate in the same car is a standard. Also though, the quality of your teammate counts.

Yet you ignore the fact that it's a combination of car and driver. A driver who set the standard in one car may not set the standard in another car - especially as it often takes time to get settled in a team... Look at Fisichella in 2009 - he led the Belgian GP, was regularly scoring points in a Force India, yet he moved to Ferrari and never scored another point!

To say that Button as world champion would have expected to walk into McLaren, and beat Hamilton, who let's face it, was ensconsced in the team, and was seen as the de-facto number one would have been quite an achievement! As such, by only considering 2010 in your comparison of years, you are guilty of exactly what you are accusing TBY to have done!

 

[Slyboogy]

Regularly scoring points for Force India?

Fisichella's only points scoring position at Force India was the 2nd place at the Belgium grand prix

 

[The Artist.....]

(Sorry, my mind's playing tricks with me!) - But the point still stands that he went from second place in Spa to not scoring again!

 

[downforce]

Thats way different, that ferrari was so tricky that it took Raikkonen untill the 4th race to score points in it and it took Massa until his 5th race to score points in it. And they had both had the whole of pre season testing in the car. After that, Raikkonen had another 8 race weekends in that car before Fisi joined him.

Thats pre season testing and 12 grand prix weekends in the car, compared to Fisi who had not even had 1 lap in the car before Monza.

Then there is the fact that the Ferrari had KERS and the Force-India did not.


Jenson Button on the other hand, was testing the McLaren from the beginning with Hamilton which is a major advantage over Fisi's situation, he had time to get used to the car where it didn't matter so much and there wasn't something tricky like KERS to get used to. Also as has been said, Button had 10 seasons under his belt to Hamiltons 3

And the entire McLaren team was re organised to accomadate Buttons presence - you can bet Ferrari wasn't re organised to help Fisi

 

[The Artist.....]

Who's itching to bash Hamilton? Many people are saying that you can't make big on his achievements without taking into account the entire picture! Hamilton is not yet a great, in my opinion, because whilst he has won a championship, his career has been littered with inconsistency, and has not yet shown a level of domination that has been seen from drivers like Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Clark, Fangio etc. He is certainly a very good driver, but a great? Not yet!

 

[siffert_fan]

Despite being an unashamed Hamilton fan I'll never understand why anything remotely to do with him seems to provoke fanatical responses both for and against him everywhere you go.

I think a lot of the negative responses is more of a backlash against the near-worshipping posts by a handful of members here than about Hamilton himself. I rather imagine that a third or so of the postings in this thread are courtesy of 3 or 4 people. I am equally sure virtually everyone knows who those 3 or 4 are without having to do any research.

At one point, I was tempted to go on the "God thread" and say "there is a God and his name is Lewis" just to see if they would post an "amen".

 

[Cookinflatsix]

It's hard to achieve greatness a few years into any career, that's not in question,

Yes the negative responses to him are balanced by the supportive, same posters always supporting him? same posters always with something negative to contribute to the thread

Question, which came first? Chicken or egg?

I suspect the vitriolic non free-range cockerels came first!

(amen)

 

[racecub]

siffert_fan I think thats to simplify the situation somewhat. So people on this forum may post negative comments about hamilon because they dont like Hamilton fans posting positive ones.It doesnt account for negativity in the media, on other forums, from other races and from old racers(Of the Mansell and Lauda ilk).I think there' s jealousy going on , that this young man exploded onto the scene in such spectacular fashion. Some people feel the need to put him down.Some have a go at his driving skills, some his personality, some the friends he keeps, some the fact he hasnt driven in a car further down the grid, some dont like his father, the list goes on. I can understand why drivers (current and old) do this-put down the best, the ones that threaten and make them appear less good. I cant undersand why armchair experts do it? maybe its because he threatens their favourite driver And the media, well they'll do anything to sell papers. And for some reason British media prefer underdogs to out and out talent.

 

[FB]

This seems an appropriate moment for me to drop this comment in from a moderators perspective as I have been having discussion with various members off line about the pro and anti Hamilton lobby (I use this as a general description as some may feel they are just being more objective but it does come across as negativity)

I'm very pleased that there doesn't appear to be the racist overtones in any of the discussions which so blighted 606, so thanks to all members for that. But, as we all know, Lewis Hamilton is a driver who divides opinion probably more than any other racing driver has in the history of the sport.

It appears to me the pro lobby feel it necessary to defend Hamilton at every turn whilst the arguments they put forward are often jumped on by other members and put up for ridicule which generates a response, which generates another response and we end up in every decreasing circles. We ended up the other day with Godwins Law being mentioned which I had hoped this Forum would never have stooped to, either as an original post or as a response.

For those on the pro-side, please fell free to defend your driver if you feel it necessary but please remember that if you postulate an opinion for which there is no hard evidence, simply your "gut feel" then other members may call you on this. Please don't over react if they do.

For those on the anti-side (and, again, I use this as general term not to specifically categorise people as anti Lewis Hamilton), make your point but please try and avoid any personal invective as if the OP genuinely believes what they have written does it really create such a problem?

I suppose what I am asking for is that we behave in an adult way when responding to the thoughts of others. Count to 10, re-read what someone has posted, laugh at it if you want but don't keep going round and round in circles as neither side is ever likely to change the others opinion.

We want this to be a place where all members feel they can contribute without the sort of reaction which 606 became famous for. As a moderating team we try and see both sides, but, we are human and have opinions too. If you get a note from a mod asking you to tone things down it is not personal we are trying to do our best for all forum members. If you feel a post has over stepped the mark there is the option to report it but please don't do this just because you disagree with it. Similar if some has posted something you don't like or responded to you in a negative way you don't have to respond, smile, think "yeah, what a chump" and move on.

Clip the Apex became a haven for many disillusioned 606 members as the level of discussion transcended many other forums. Unfortunately this has changed over recent months and not for the better. Let's get back to what CTA was, a place for adult discussion on a adult sport.

Sorry for taking so much of your time with this lengthy post but we really do need to to get some proportion back into the discussion.

Thanks

FB