Poll Sebastian Vettel's ever increasing circles

[RasputinLives]

I wasn't comparing the two. I am in no way arguing that Vettel is better than Hamilton or vice versa. I'm arguing that Vettel is a top class driver and his title cannot be snubbed away by just saying 'it was the car'. My point on team mates is that every driver gets beat by a team mate at somepoint no matter how good they are. Alonso got beat by a rookie in his first year when Hamilton came on the scene. Schumacher got beat by Rosberg, Senna got beat by Prost, Prost got beat by Senna, Lauda got beat by Prost. It doesn't take away the fact that all of them were supreme when they won their championships.

 

[Angel]

Any driver needs a good car to win races and ultimately the title, that much is true. Put the likes of Hamilton and Vettel in the current Williams and they obviously wouldn't win races in it. Sometimes drivers outperform their cars, that is also true, but having the best car doesn't automatically win you a title, if it did the likes of Coulthard, Irvine, Massa, Webber, Barrichello, and Bottas, to name but a few, should all have been champions by now and none of them have been.

To be a champion you need that extra something which only some drivers have. Any great sportsman will tell you that a lot of the reason you win is to do with mental attitude and that is true. Some days you can find that supreme focus and you're so on it, nothing can stop you. Other days you can't do what should come easily to you and you can't put your finger on why. If your head is not in the right place you can more or less forget it.

Hamilton has had meltdowns in the past, he can lose it big time if he's not right mentally, it's happened time and time again. Just watch him if he fluffs quali or in the race and the pressure on him ramps up. Sometimes he can pull a great lap out when it really counts, but all too often he'll make an even worse mistake. That is not a criticism of him, he's a human and that's what happens. Right now he's in the fortunate position of knowing he has arguably the best car on the grid and he has a great team behind him, it's easy to be focused and doing well.

Right now, for whatever reason Seb's head isn't in the right place. Maybe it's too much pressure from Ferrari, or from the fact he has a new strong team mate, or maybe he's putting too much pressure on himself, or a combination of all three. Who knows? I reckon until he sorts himself out he's going to keep on making these stupid errors because he's trying too hard not to, and that is causing all the more if that makes sense. It's a vicious circle.

 

[siffert_fan]

It is worth noting that in the final year of being lead by Alonso, Ferrari wound up almost 500 points behind Mercedes in the WCC standings. Last year it was down to 84 points! I don't know how much of the improvement to attribute to Vettel, but I doubt that his contribution to the improvement is zero.
so what does that say about Vettel vs Alonso?

 

[Andyoak]

Guess he couldn't find that 0.6 seconds

 

[olegg]

I wasn't comparing the two. I am in no way arguing that Vettel is better than Hamilton or vice versa. I'm arguing that Vettel is a top class driver and his title cannot be snubbed away by just saying 'it was the car'. My point on team mates is that every driver gets beat by a team mate at somepoint no matter how good they are. Alonso got beat by a rookie in his first year when Hamilton came on the scene. Schumacher got beat by Rosberg, Senna got beat by Prost, Prost got beat by Senna, Lauda got beat by Prost. It doesn't take away the fact that all of them were supreme when they won their championships.

All of course is right.
But everything is relative.
And it's one thing to lose some points to end of season, sometimes conceding for objective reasons.
And another thing, when four-time champion is inferior to the rookie of team
not showing even close that shows the driver, which at the beginning of the season
be recorded as second driver.

 

[RasputinLives]

He got beat fair and square there is no denying that - however having had 4-5 seasons of running up front and winning multiple races I believe he found his spirit lacking when it came to fighting for 4th and 5ths in a struggling car. I think he left them that year to gain new motivation with a new challenge. I'm not saying this excuses the loss just a fact of it.

olegg I assume that Alonso having lost out to a team mate who has never raced in F1 before means you hold him in even lesser regard than Hamilton and Vettel?

 

[F1Brits_90]

the thing is that i like sustained brilliance in all my "legends" in any sport vettel a good driver but for 4 years great the last 5 disappointing. he hasnt produced his red bull form in a ferrari which could perpetuate the notion it was the car & would i have him as a great probally not yet i think there are better drivers with 3 world titles. would i class him up there with Schumacher Hamilton Lauda Prost Senna not yet. look at people at other sports Ronnie O'Sullivan Tiger Woods Joe Calzaghe Usain Bolt Tom Brady Alex Ferguson. all have been brilliant for over a decade or nearly in bolt case

am i sorry for the all unintended rhetorical questions. probally

 

[RasputinLives]

I would argue that Vettel has 2 very good years at Ferrari followed by 2 bad ones. As siffert_fan pointed out Ferrari are a lot closer to Merc than they ever were with Alonso and Vettel has to take credit for that. There were not the errors you see now in 15 and 16. In fact he pushed the car to wins it shouldn't have had.

 

[F1Brits_90]

maybe yes pr is just as brundle says law of diminishing returns, even the red bull towards the end of 2018 had got development close to mercedes. but lets not forget that alonso was 20/25laps from the world title in his miracle drives of 2012. vettel has yet to make within 3 races to go

 

[siffert_fan]

And don't forget that the Mercedes advantage has been so huge since the start of the current formula that the WDC has strictly been a competition between their two drivers. Again, this is proven by the number of 1-2 finishes the team has had over that time.

 

[Il_leone]

If Hamilton won the title last season in a Ferrari would people say it was him or the car ?

People keep going back to the Red Bull era


2010- - they had 4 1-2's but the general belief they had marginally the best car certainly in quali but they were squandering opportunities due to their inexperience in contesting for championship. A bungled Ferrari pit stop meant they handled the title to Vettel on a plate instead of Webber



2011 - they were genuinely class of the field - had it not been for Button and Alonso they would have finished 1-2 in the championship. The team got 3 1-2s

2012- Mclaren had the fastest car but that advantage was lost by the time they reached the Asia rounds which Vettel won all 4 races

2013- Red Bull were upset about the perceived restrictions that the Pirelli tyre's were performing at so that their margin was small. Once the Silverstone farce prompted the FIA to take serious actions ... Red Bull got their wish and had much more durable race tyres from Pirelli and promptly romped to a dominant end. Red Bull had 4 1-2s but Webber pretty much gave up and admitted defeat against Vettel (and Marko's constant scheme to move him)

Only subsequently to moan about how they've been short changed by Renault for the power train era and crying for the rules to be be changed

 

[RasputinLives]

I'm sorry I don't believe in Alonso miracles.

 

[Il_leone]

sobriety People were calling Hamilton a numpty when he swapped Mclaren for Mercedes back in 2012 when you consider Mclaren were amongst the top 3 teams and Mercedes were in no man's land distant 4th best and usually a lap down so people were thinking it was a huge risk for Hamilton to do this
He's proven his credentials and justified by his decision

 

[Il_leone]

Would Ferrari be making bungled decisions like last year if Alonso was still with the team because Vettel does not seem to be able to assert his authority or there is distrust in the team preventing him to do so?

 

[RasputinLives]

Ferrari made a ton of bungled decisions when Alonso was there and then, unlike Vettel, he slagged them all off on the radio and completely lost his popularity with fan and mechanic alike - so the answer is yes they would.

 

[Il_leone]

So based on what Vettel has done at Ferrari so far ... do people think he has exceeded Alonso ? I remember Alonso saying Vettel's reputation is great when he is winning in the best car but when he is not winning when he has not got the best car then there would be question marks?


Vettel certainly has lost the plot a few times over the radio with his Ferrari crew probably not quite as animated as Alonso.

See his comment post Monza quali or the times last year where he seems to be doubting his team's strategy

 

[RasputinLives]

Questioning strategy is slightly different to calling the team imbeciles.

As for if he has been more successful then see siffert_fan post about the points gap from Ferrari to Merc.

 

[F1Brits_90]

I'm sorry I don't believe in Alonso miracles.

i agree its not a miracle that just a sporting phrase. but to get that 2012 ferrari in contention for that long was impressive. kept climbing that mountain as vettel was front row & he was 6th or 7th on grid

 

[siffert_fan]

Il_leone

So, are you equating Red Bulls' 2010 (4) 1-2s, 2011 (3) 1-2s and 2013 (4) 1-2s with Mercedes' 2014 (11) 1-2s, 2015 (12) 1-2s, and 2016 (8)1-2s?

Then look at Bottas' 2016 results: 85 points, best position being a 3rd place, vs his 2017 results with Mercedes: 305 points and 3 wins!!!

I guess he must have gotten a HUGE infusion of talent between the two seasons.

BTW, the point is that IMO not even Hamilton could have won the title in Ferrari against Mercedes.

 

[RasputinLives]

F1Brits_90 he was in contention for so long because despite being the best car in the field the Red Bull wasn't dominant. As well as wins for Red Bull and Ferrari you also saw wins for 2 McLaren drivers, a Williams driver and a Merc driver. You also got podiums for both Enstone drivers (Kimi finished 3rd in the title race), the other Merc driver and a Sauber drivers!

Alonso did not perform miracles he just consistanly performed to the level he and Ferrari were capable of whilst everyone else did. The reason he kept pace with Vettel was that on the days he didn't beat him there were 5 other drivers (not including Massa) who could do and often did. In this time of 2 team war with no reliability issues its hard to remember it made things different back then.

So no miracles - just Alonso and car performing how it should. Which is good and makes him a great driver but not the miracle worker his PR team try to tell us he is.