Poll Sebastian Vettel's ever increasing circles

[Andyoak]

Maybe he's taking Liberty's promise to liven up the show too literally.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I've voted "other" but I think it's close to one that's already up there.

I don't think he has an issue with the Ferrari's power nut he does seem to have an issue repositioning his car after he's been overtaken. I think he gets caught out by the change in downforce levels and when trying to move out potentially to try and cut back, he gets thrown off.

 

[Titch]

But Leclerc doesn’t, so surely you’re suggesting he isn’t a really talented driver.?

 

[cider_and_toast]

Nope, just saying he may have an issue with one area of driving.

You don't get 4 world titles without talent no matter how good the car.

Plenty of sportsmen and women have one area they find difficult even if they are at the top of their game.

 

[Il_leone]

I see Hamilton as "Senna" and Vettel as "Prost" in their wheel to wheel battles. Hamilton is just able to have confidence in his own braking ability and able to put the car in a position where the other driver has to yield

Vettel seems a bit more cautious when it comes to wheel to wheel

 

[Brogan]

Mercedes (where they coccon their lead driver and have a much louder voice with the stewards)

lol

You posted that a day late.

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio]

I don't think he has an issue with the Ferrari's power nut he does seem to have an issue repositioning his car after he's been overtaken. I think he gets caught out by the change in downforce levels and when trying to move out potentially to try and cut back, he gets thrown off.

interesting post, my problem is that if that was the case he would go wide (and hit the car on the outside), instead he always end up spinning without hitting the other car and that to me suggest that he tries to close his line mid turn, in a sense it's as if he was trying to correct an understeer, to me it looks as if his instinct is to take up a fight but then when he gets close to the other driver he backs off (literally, from the outside it looks as if he lifts and decrease the amount of steering lock, and so he ends up with more grip at the front and the rear end turns in), it's a bit as if he's scared of the consequences of fighting another driver. I wonder if that's because he is scared of other drivers or whether he's scared of what would happen is he touches another car (ie penalty, and he recieved many in the last few years that IMHO weren't really very fair).

In the past he wasn't like that, when he was at RBR, and in his first years at Ferrari he wouldn't back off during a dice, now he often does, especially when he's defending, and that leads me to believe that Vettel's problem is not that he's scared of racing other drivers but rather that he's scared of the consequences ie. he knows that he would get punished if he gets even remotely close to another car.

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio]

Yet again Publius Cornelius Scipio I agree with you entirely. In future I'll just put your name and 'what he says'

 

[BradMan]

Nope, just saying he may have an issue with one area of driving.

You don't get 4 world titles without talent no matter how good the car.

Plenty of sportsmen and women have one area they find difficult even if they are at the top of their game.

I see Hamilton as "Senna" and Vettel as "Prost" in their wheel to wheel battles. Hamilton is just able to have confidence in his own braking ability and able to put the car in a position where the other driver has to yield

Vettel seems a bit more cautious when it comes to wheel to wheel

interesting post, my problem is that if that was the case he would go wide (and hit the car on the outside), instead he always end up spinning without hitting the other car and that to me suggest that he tries to close his line mid turn, in a sense it's as if he was trying to correct an understeer, to me it looks as if his instinct is to take up a fight but then when he gets close to the other driver he backs off (literally, from the outside it looks as if he lifts and decrease the amount of steering lock, and so he ends up with more grip at the front and the rear end turns in), it's a bit as if he's scared of the consequences of fighting another driver. I wonder if that's because he is scared of other drivers or whether he's scared of what would happen is he touches another car (ie penalty, and he recieved many in the last few years that IMHO weren't really very fair).

In the past he wasn't like that, when he was at RBR, and in his first years at Ferrari he wouldn't back off during a dice, now he often does, especially when he's defending, and that leads me to believe that Vettel's problem is not that he's scared of racing other drivers but rather that he's scared of the consequences ie. he knows that he would get punished if he gets even remotely close to another car.

I love these responses to this problem.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Publius Cornelius Scipio that's an interesting point. I hadn't considered lift off oversteer but that would certainly explain it more appropriately.

 

[Ruslan]

Well, it was almost certainly due to "lift off oversteer" but the question was that because he over-committed and was forced to compromise his driving line at the last moment? Meaning his mistake is made when entering the corner, where he overcommits?

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio]

Well, it was almost certainly due to "lift off oversteer" but the question was that because he over-committed and was forced to compromise his driving line at the last moment? Meaning his mistake is made when entering the corner, where he overcommits?

I think that his mistake is made when he commits to challenge the other driver and then backs off, it has happened so many times that I can't believe that an F1 driver, or any professional driver for that matter, cannot judge how fast he can commit to a corner (at a track where he has done several hundred laps in his career, plus a few thousand in the simulator). Vettel's mistakes when he's in a dice are very very odd, what happened to him at Hockenheim can happen, same last year when he hit Bottas at the start, what he did last Sunday looks very odd to me (and I don't believe that it's a problem with the car). I might be wrong, of course

 

[Ruslan]

I think that his mistake is made when he commits to challenge the other driver and then backs off, it has happened so many times that I can't believe that an F1 driver, or any professional driver for that matter, cannot judge how fast he can commit to a corner (at a track where he has done several hundred laps in his career, plus a few thousand in the simulator). Vettel's mistakes when he's in a dice are very very odd, what happened to him at Hockenheim can happen, same last year when he hit Bottas at the start, what he did last Sunday looks very odd to me (and I don't believe that it's a problem with the car). I might be wrong, of course

It sounds reasonable (not that I would really know)....but my question is whether the mistake is the way he commits to the corner to start with? Has he put himself in a situation where he is going to have an accident unless he makes a correction at the last minute?

 

[Publius Cornelius Scipio]

It sounds reasonable (not that I would really know)....but my question is whether the mistake is the way he commits to the corner to start with? Has he put himself in a situation where he is going to have an accident unless he makes a correction at the last minute?

if you try to keep alongside another car in a turn there it the possibility that you are going to touch, it happens all the time, it doesn't look to me as if Verstappen or Hamilton are much troubled by this occurence whereas it seems to affect Vettel quite a lot, it looks to me as if his instinct tells him "race him!" and he then realises that if he does he might get in trouble.

Obviously my position is based on the fact that I believe that over the last few years Vettel has been treated very differently from Verstappen or Hamilton, a bit like Rosberg has been treated from 2014 onwards. Only Rosberg is probably a bit stronger mentally than Vettel and somehow he managed to overcome this difficulty, Vettel doesn't seem to be able to overcome this.

From the outside it looks to me as if he doesn't feel loved and shielded from the outside world at Ferrari.

He went there to "do a Schumacher", rebuild a team that couldn't win, the point is that Vettel might be a slightly better driver than Schumacher, Schumacher's strenght was his approach and his ability to build a team around him, Vettel hasn't got Schemacher's character. There's a lot of people with a deep knowledge of Ferrari that still claim that Schumacher was a very good driver but in fairness his opposition was rather weak and that what makes him an amazing champion is not his driving but what he managed to do at Ferrari, Mauro Forghieri, IMHO one of the greatest egnineers of all times, believes that this is the case. Vettel is a very very good driver, certinaly one of the very best out there, but he doesn't look to me like a leader of men (same as Hamilton, Verstappen, etc.)

 

[jez101]

I think he has a heavy right foot. It worked for him in the blown diffuser days, but it's a disadvantage now.

 

[vintly]

It may be that simple jez101. Seb was famous for getting the power down earlier than others mid-corner, and his clear dislike for the hybrid car when still at Red Bull was clear enough to see that season.

 

[RasputinLives]

So you're basically saying jez101 that Vettels driving style doesn't suit the Hybrid era and he's been unable to adapt completely. That's really interesting and highly possible.

I always thought that Hamilton had to 'relearn' his race craft when refuelling was banned and it took him a couple of years which is why Button was getting the best of him. His driving style was set up for short sprints and the long runs took away a lot of what gave him his advantage over people. Maybe the hybrid car dents Vettels skills and he's just not got it sorted yet.

 

[jez101]

Basically, yes RasputinLives / vintly . I think when people are under pressure, instinct takes over and that's why the problem is highlighted when he is in that situation.

 

[FB]

Ah, Sebastian Vettel's lizard brain. That could make a new thread in CTA presents...

 

[Ruslan]

if you try to keep alongside another car in a turn there it the possibility that you are going to touch, it happens all the time, it doesn't look to me as if Verstappen or Hamilton are much troubled by this occurence whereas it seems to affect Vettel quite a lot, it looks to me as if his instinct tells him "race him!" and he then realises that if he does he might get in trouble.

Obviously my position is based on the fact that I believe that over the last few years Vettel has been treated very differently from Verstappen or Hamilton, a bit like Rosberg has been treated from 2014 onwards. Only Rosberg is probably a bit stronger mentally than Vettel and somehow he managed to overcome this difficulty, Vettel doesn't seem to be able to overcome this.

From the outside it looks to me as if he doesn't feel loved and shielded from the outside world at Ferrari.

He went there to "do a Schumacher", rebuild a team that couldn't win, the point is that Vettel might be a slightly better driver than Schumacher, Schumacher's strenght was his approach and his ability to build a team around him, Vettel hasn't got Schemacher's character. There's a lot of people with a deep knowledge of Ferrari that still claim that Schumacher was a very good driver but in fairness his opposition was rather weak and that what makes him an amazing champion is not his driving but what he managed to do at Ferrari, Mauro Forghieri, IMHO one of the greatest egnineers of all times, believes that this is the case. Vettel is a very very good driver, certinaly one of the very best out there, but he doesn't look to me like a leader of men (same as Hamilton, Verstappen, etc.)

Well, another one of your great, thought provoking posts. Let me break it down.....

<<Obviously my position is based on the fact that I believe that over the last few years Vettel has been treated very differently from Verstappen or Hamilton, a bit like Rosberg has been treated from 2014 onwards. Only Rosberg is probably a bit stronger mentally than Vettel and somehow he managed to overcome this difficulty, Vettel doesn't seem to be able to overcome this.>>

You have made this argument before about the stewarding. I have never really bought into that. I do think Vettel has stepped over the line a lot more often than Hamilton (not that I have kept a tally). I also do not think Rosberg was mistreated, as I do put the majority of the incidents between him and Hamilton more in his column than in Hamilton's. That said.....I do agree that Rosberg is a lot stronger mentally. He somehow managed to fight a teammate that was consistently faster than him, matched his speed at times, and beat him to the WC once because of it. Even now, when I see him as commentator, he just strikes me as extremely intelligent. He comes off as an extremely talented individual who just wasn't quite the fastest guy out there.

<<From the outside it looks to me as if he doesn't feel loved and shielded from the outside world at Ferrari.>>

And I think that is important for Vettel. He is one of those "employees" who needs constant support and reassurance. That works better in a smaller team than in something more corporate (and notorious for infighting) like Ferrari.

<<He went there to "do a Schumacher", rebuild a team that couldn't win,...>>

Well, not to underrate what Schumacher did, but what he really did was just drag the entire brain-trust of Bennetton with him (except for Briatore). This is not rocket science. If Vettel could have gotten the entire brain-trust of Red Bull to come with him, then I am sure we would all be talking about him being the next Schumacher. That did not happen. I think it was a one-of situation that Schumacher skillfully/accidently benefited from.

<<There's a lot of people with a deep knowledge of Ferrari that still claim that Schumacher was a very good driver but in fairness his opposition was rather weak and that what makes him an amazing champion is not his driving but what he managed to do at Ferrari, Mauro Forghieri, IMHO one of the greatest egnineers of all times, believes that this is the case.>>

I am beginning to come to that conclusion also. His rather poor performance compared to Mercedes teammate Rosberg really was eye-opening.

<<Vettel is a very very good driver, certinaly one of the very best out there, but he doesn't look to me like a leader of men (same as Hamilton, Verstappen, etc>>

Actually, I see Hamilton is growing and getting better at this. He clearly now always addresses the crowd, the fans, etc. I think he tries a little harder now to be supportive of the team, teammates, etc. I also suspect he is now thinking beyond F1. He has certainly built of network of friends and associates outside of F1. But, I don't see much growth from Vettel. I think he is very simple guy (although seems bright). I have my doubts about the extent Verstappen can be anything other than what he already is.