Poll Sebastian Vettel's ever increasing circles

[Il_leone]

siffert_fan Hamilton has not been afraid of anyone his CV says he has beaten 3 world champions - 2 of them of reigning world champions. Mercedes did try to hire Verstappen or Ricciardo but were told hands off by Red Bull pretty much even now the rumours will not go away that they want Verstappen

Vettel's the one with the conundrum to prove he is a worthy world champion without all this mired controversy

 

[RasputinLives]

F1Brits_90 actually that Red Bull was nowhere near as dominat as the Merc has been and 2010 was one of the closest seasons ever with 5 drivers in 3 different cars capable of winning ir. All but one of Lewis's championships come in a car that was class of the field but we don't say same to him. The 'complete dominant Red Bull' thing is a myth.

I'll also remind everyone that he won a Grand Prix in a Torro Rosso.

 

[siffert_fan]

EXACTLY!

 

[F1Brits_90]

2010 - ill give it that, thats the most equal a championship webber shouldve won. he won because of no DRS & being 2nd choice/forgotten man forgetting it was 3 man battle

2011 - the red bull was so good took every pole bar 1 & vettel had 15

2012 - car was in a different league. it was Alonsos miracles & taking most of his luck. he shouldve been no where near 20 laps from title

2013 - from canadian gp in June to the final race in abu dhabi november. in races he finished he was only beaten once. the car was that good

he won in a toro rosso. yes fantastic, but he took a gamble on fully wet set up & it paid off. these shocks are part of F1. panis won in prost, herbert won in Stewart, Perez couldve won in sauber hill couldve won in a arrows. i just think for vettel everything has to be perfect car to suit him with no rivals. because he cracks under the pressure otherwise proven many times & im trying to think of a time he beat someone in 50/50 battle over a season. thinking 2014 2017 & 2018 all lost.

i say about neweys titles because they had such a massive downforce gulf between the rivals they were only ones who could take 130r in Suzuka or turn 8 in istanbul flat. also in 2011 12 & 13. you would have to say that you put half the grid in that car they win them titles. but could someone but hamilton have won the last 2 titles i doubt it

 

[siffert_fan]

Compare the number of 1-2 finishes for the RBs vs the Mercs. A 1-2 finish is a good indicator of CAR dominance, since it allows a driver of lesser ability to vanquish better drivers on other teams.

 

[RasputinLives]

I'm quoting my old buddy teabagyokel here - if the Red Bull was that dominant how come Webber never finished second in the title? He got that many poles because, like Hamilton, he was in top form and, for the record, i don't believe in Alonso miracles however much the press tell me about them.

What it comes down to though F1Brits_90 is if you think Vettels titles are meaningless then you have to apply the same logic to Hamilton. The only time he won it when not in the best car was 2008 when his rivals were Massa, Kimi and Koverleinan who have all be consistently beat by Alonso, Vettel and Bottas. He actually lost a title in a car far superior to the rest of the field to Rosberg.

Or we could except the fact that sometimes a top driver on form in a top car creates supreme dominance and both fully deserve all their titles and don't have anything to prove to anyone.

 

[RasputinLives]

Come to think of it you'd have to apply the same logic to Schumacher, Senna, Hill, Hakeneien, Prost, Mansell and many more. Basically your saying no driver had ever deserved a title ever.

 

[Chasz]

Boom! So we were up late last night concluding that it is the driver... And the CAR!

Damn, I was thinking I could buy a mx5 and get in the mix

 

[F1Brits_90]

but hamilton has proven numerous times in sereval eras of cars & underperforming McLaren & Mercedes he can still win races & take poles over the 10yrs, Schumacher won l in several eras of cars a Benetton, successful at times in mercedes over nearly 20yrs . unlike vettel once the grid has closen up he is still in championship contention. whereas vettel has been comfortably beaten the last 2 years. & the 4 arent meaningless but mean less needs to prove he can win outside newey & red bull because that was 1 car from 1 time. 5th would do that, because his reputation is from 2013. its 2019 thats 2 generation of cars since. also only 2 teammate he beaten by 2010 weren't his equal, soon as hes get someone near it he struggles. got beat by Ricarddo & kimi the back end of season. he hardly setting world alight v a guy in his 24th F1 race. as much i think he's fantastic

 

[RasputinLives]

He never got beat by Kimi. Thats like saying Lewis got beat by Bottas at begining of last season. A season is a season.

I'll be honest F1Brits_90 I think your logic is flawed and its due to who you are applying it too. Vettel has plenty of wins in a car which is not the class of the field from Italy 2008 to Bahrain 2015. I think the criteria you are asking him to meet is one few other drivers including Hamilton do.

 

[F1Brits_90]

as I saying above vettel was brilliant in that car with them rules. but he not been the same driver outside them. whereas many other drivers have been successful in other generations

 

[siffert_fan]

Most of Hamilton's brilliance has been in the Mercedes cars under the current rules, when most sources credited the Mercs with a 70hp advantage at the start of the formula. Whether that advantage has even diminished, let alone been overcome, is debatable. But, when the current formula started, Hamilton went from fourth the previous season to being WDC! So, F1Brits_90, tell me who benefitted from a certain formula? Also remember that LH has been beaten by two teammates and scored equal points with another. Vettel has been beaten one time by a teammate.

I would be very willing to bet that, if LH and SV were to switch drives, this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

 

[sobriety]

We'd all be calling Hamilton a numpty for swapping the best car in the field for the perennial also ran.

It's generally a mark of a proper great that they have a knack of getting themselves into the right seat at the right time, above and beyond their first WDC team. I'd say Hamilton has accomplished that thus far, but Ferrari is looking to be a poisoned chalice, although many would say that normal service there has simply resumed.

 

[F1Brits_90]

F1Brits_90, tell me who benefitted from a certain formula?

but hamilton has been competitive in all eras whether thats 2007 & 08 cars. 2009 - 2013 where in 2012 he lost 100pts because of unreliability. took poles & a win in terrible 2013 mercedes. then took advantage 2014 - 2016 era. but since 2017 ferrari have been big rivals hamilton in 2017 cars done well & again in 2019 cars

when was the last time you finished a race & said what a stupid error from lewis. vettel since last win has made 5ish Maybe italy usa & Bahrain off top of my head.

 

[RasputinLives]

Your memory of 2012 is very different to mine. I remember Hamilton being all over the place that year. Lewis very much struggled to adjust when the refueling era ended and was still not fully up to speed that year.

 

[F1Brits_90]

is thag video supposed to be 2012 or 2008

 

[RasputinLives]

It's a collection of all from 2007 to 2017. Lewis has made many errors under pressure just like Vettel has been doing recently. In fact in 2012 there was similar talk about Lewis as there is about Sebastian in this thread because the pressure was getting to him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Lewis isn't a great driver. He is probably one of the greatest of all time because he clearly is. He has the best car in the field but he is supreme form which has lead to him being extremely dominant. Just like Vettel between 2011 and 2013.

Vettel was supreme those years so dismissing it as just the car and 'his titles mean nothing without another' is highly frustrating

 

[olegg]

It's a collection of all from 2007 to 2017. Lewis has made many errors under pressure just like Vettel has been doing recently. In fact in 2012 there was similar talk about Lewis as there is about Sebastian in this thread because the pressure was getting to him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Lewis isn't a great driver. He is probably one of the greatest of all time because he clearly is. He has the best car in the field but he is supreme form which has lead to him being extremely dominant. Just like Vettel between 2011 and 2013.
Vettel was supreme those years so dismissing it as just the car and 'his titles mean nothing without another' is highly frustrating

And could you may remember what Hamilton lost to his teammate, like Vettel lost to Ricciardo?
Let me remind you, Vettel was by this time a multiple champion and undisputed favorite in the team,
but Ricciardo - a newcomer to the team.

 

[RasputinLives]

Hamilton got beat by Button and Rosberg. All great drivers can take by a team mate at least once in their career.

 

[olegg]

Hamilton got beat by Button and Rosberg. All great drivers can take by a team mate at least once in their career.

Are you serious?
I.e. Button and Rosberg won against Hamilton so that he had not a wins of race for the season
but his new teammates had a few?
Let me remind you that button and Rosberg beat Hamilton a few seasons later in the one team
and then, when Hamilton had much more technical problems in the season
compared with teammates.