Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Mephistopheles]

For all we know Webber is total crap

Well that is one excuse for his dominance now where are the others?

He has won four world championships on the bounce and the reason for this is that Webber is "Crap." and so Seb doesn't deserve the credit, also to prove yourself in F1 apparently you have to race against either Hamilton or Alonso in the same machinery, I find that statement quite bizarre especially since a certain Jenson Button has raced against one of these drivers in the same machinery and actually beat and outpointed him in that machinery but apparently the consensus seems to be that not only doesn't Button get to be mentioned in these three drivers he is actually seen as just a decent mid fielder by those that purport that to be considered any good you have to pit yourself against the so called top three

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I didn't say that Vettel doesn't deserve the credit, clearly he is an immense driver.

I think Vettel won four driver's championships because in combination with having the fastest car and the best team, he put in the performances, took the wins and points. He made it work.

Vettel has won eleven races this season now to Webber's zero, in 2011 Vettel won the battle 11-1 (even Webber's single win was gifted to him in many people's opinion). Don't get me wrong, I think Vettel is an outstanding driver, the best of the grid. That being said, I don't think any driver (in F1 ever) is that dominant against a decent F1 driver (e.g. a solid number two).

I just think Vettel needs to face a truly great team-mate or he'll always have that question mark hanging over him as to how he would compare. Clark had Hill, Lauda had Prost, Senna had Prost, Hamilton had Alonso. Do you think any of these drivers (I'll leave the last pair out for now) would be revered so much and rate so highly in the GOAT lists if they hadn't faced each other? I don't think so. I'll always wonder how he would have coped with Alonso's tenacity or Hamilton's speed.

EDIT

Seeing as you edited your post Mephistopheles, I don't think Vettel needs to prove himself, I think he's the best of the grid. As for Button, we can talk about him in his own thread if you would like, I don't wish to take this driver thread off topic.

 

[Kewee]

no-FIAt-please ……Then probably a better start to your post would be "for all we know Webber is definitely not crap".
I'm of the opinion that Vettel has lifted his game to a level even Alonso may have difficulty matching. As I've said he may well have become the finest driver the sports ever seen. Believe me that's hard for me to admit as I've always been able to find aspects of Vettel I haven't liked, but what I'm watching now is extraordinary. Yes he's in a very good car but don't you think we should consider the significant role he's played in turning Red Bull into a world beater. I would also suggest that had Vettel left Red Bull for any reason, Webber would have retired with at least one, probably more, world titles. Vettel is just that much better, much the same as past world champions have also been that much better than their teammates. You mentioned Clark/Hill. I could add Senna/Hill. Both father and son flourished after their teammates lost their lives. That's not meant to downplay either Hill's achievements, I was a great fan of both but I don't believe either were in the same league as their teammates, had they lived and a comparison had been possible.

 

[Blog Zbod]

You can cherry-pick any driver's records, no matter how vaunted, and find them wanting, especially if you resort to challenging their bona fides on the basis of something they never had opportunity to do. It's the equivalent of asking someone to disprove a universal negative. But since we've already gone there, ...

...Fangio never prevailed in a season competing against four current or former world driving champions. Neither did Senna. Nor Schumacher. Therefore none of them can compare to Sebastian Vettel, who remains the only driver to have accomplished this feat on three different seasons.

In 2011, 2012 and 2013, Vettel was up against four, five and four former WDCs, respectively. This represents 13 separate opportunities for former WDCs to unseat Vettel and reclaim their title. But they all of them failed. Vettel alone has vanquished the most talent-rich fields in F1 history, not once, but three times. In comparison, when Fangio, Senna and Schumacher won their WDCs, their competition were push-overs.


Regardless what you think of him, it is quite likely that Vettel will own all but a handful of the sport's most coveted records before he retires from F1.

Start with the fact that he has taken his fourth WDC at an age before Prost took his first. His driving skills are not due to peak for another 3-5 seasons. And he might well remain competitive for a further 3-7 seasons beyond that.

Now add to that that Vettel and Newey have gelled into a positive feedback loop. Vettel gets more out of the car than Newey anticipates. Which reveals to Newey other avenues of engineering to explore. Who builds for Vettel a car with expanded capabilities to exploit. Even if Newey were to leave the sport, or Vettel were to switch teams, Vettel now knows the secret of this process, and his experience with Newey will go a long way toward recreating the same symbiotic relationship with whomever tries to fill Newey's shoes.

And F1 is a sport where success is self-reinforcing. Not only because the WCC is the biggest performance-based cash payout, but also because of Bernie's displays of unabashed favouritism for certain teams. At the moment, the Red Bull logo is a major attractor. The fan base they bring to the sport goes a long way toward paying Tamara's and Petra's mortgages, as well as the Chrome Gnome's criminal defence legal bills (presently about £16m). So Bernie lavishes Red Bull with all the sweetheart deals he can cook up.

The cardinal rule of racing is: Speed costs. How fast can you afford to be? Of late, F1 and Bernie have taken the curious habit of subsidising Red Bull Racing's speed jones.


It makes little difference to his legacy whether Vettel ever wins for another team, or whether Ricciardo metamorphoses into the second coming of Senna. Because no other driver in the sport's history has vanquished such credentialed competition. Driving for no less than a fizzy drinks company, he has humbled Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren, ...and even Ferrari.


To paraphrase Jeremiah Johnson's Del Gue, "In F1, a driver's greatness is figured on how mighty his enemies be." And no other driver in the sport's history has had "enemies" with the combined might of Sebastian Vettel's.

The upshot is Vettel already is one of the most accomplished drivers in the sport's history, easily top five, and he still has a ways to go before reaching his maximum ordinate. Considering the momentum he is carrying, the sheer mass of the advantages he has at his beck and call, it is a virtual certainty he will at least equal MSC's tally of seven WDCs. He could suffer a couple of mediocre seasons and still make it by age 31. Schumacher managed to continue winning races until he was 37. Providing he isn't struck by lightning or kidnapped by space aliens before his driving skills suffer their inevitable decline, and provided Formula 1 endures until then, 25 years from now, Sebastian Vettel will be a legend.

 

[teabagyokel]

Some reasons Seb might not win 7 titles:

Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hulk, Magnussen, Vandoorne, Kyvat...

You never know where the next genius is coming from. Or when.

 

[Blog Zbod]

Some reasons Seb might not win 7 titles:

Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hulk, Magnussen, Vandoorne, Kyvat....

How's that working out for them so far?

With all the advantages Vettel has going for him, there's not much can derail that Red Bull train, except Red Bull themselves. The most difficult adversity to survive is success, because it wants to make you complacent, and it leads to inflated egos (just ask Hamilton). Makes you forget there is no "i" in "team." So long as Vettel remains with the team, so long as they can minimize the internecine feuding, Red Bull isn't likely to falter.

 

[teabagyokel]

They were 3 points from losing last years title, one duff call from losing 2010. Do we know Renault will have an efficient, powerful and reliable engine next year? If they don't and Mercedes do, Lewis Hamilton will be 2014 World Champion.

Newey is better, but not by the margins we're led to believe.

 

[Kewee]

Driving for no less than a fizzy drinks company, he has humbled Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren, ...and even Ferrari.

His cars actually a Renault with a bubbly name.

 

[Slyboogy]

Some reasons Seb might not win 7 titles:

Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hulk, Magnussen, Vandoorne, Kyvat...

You never know where the next genius is coming from. Or when.

3 of those are going to head into retirement soon and will probably only take 1 or two championships in the next few seasons.

Hamilton and Hulkenberg are his peers and with Hamilton seeming to be his likely challenger, having won 4 titles already, and got possibly 10 years of racing in F1, it looks quite inevitable. He's the man to currently have in the next few seasons.

In saying that though, after Schumacher's retirement, it went all unpredictable, Alonso and Raikkonen only winning one title between them after 2006, the emergence of Hamilton, then Vettel, and Button popping out of nowhere.

 

[RasputinLives]

It worries me that as soon as a driver hits 30 now days people think he's heading for retirement.

When did F1 catch Footballs disease of being obbsessed with creating ever younger stars?

Sorry Grandad in the corner over here will be quiet.

 

[teabagyokel]

Hamilton and Hulkenberg are his peers and with Hamilton seeming to be his likely challenger, having won 4 titles already, and got possibly 10 years of racing in F1, it looks quite inevitable.

In 2006, it looked inevitable that Fernando Alonso would add to his two world titles by 2014. In 2008 it looked inevitable that Lewis Hamilton would be a multiple world champion by 2014. In 2008, it looked like Jenson Button was washed up, never to win that title he was aiming for.

Things happen. None of us have crystal balls.

 

[Fenderman]

Things happen. None of us have crystal balls.

Good job too. A knee in the nuts is a scary enough prospect as it is.


Sorry about that, haven't used that one in ages and couldn't resist.

 

[Blog Zbod]

Depending how you count it, Vettel's 8° win in a row is the new record. It definitely is the most in a row in the same season.

Ascari won the last six races of 1952, and the first race of 1953, but Ferrari skipped the second race of the season, the Indy 500. Then Ascari won the following two races.

Indy was a Formula One World Championship race from 1950-1960, so Ascari did not win nine consecutive races. But he did win the nine in a row which he contested.

I hate to quibble over technicalities but I think the record already is Vettel's.

 

[Bill Boddy]

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Modern cars break down infrequently whereas in the early years car failure was a matter of course. In 1950 Fangio drove in six races of which he won three and had mechanical failures in three. So he won 100% of all the races that he finished in which Vettel has never yet achieved. Also there were only six races (discounting Indianapolis) so his chances of winning nine in succession in the same season were a big fat zero. He was so dominant that year that it is quite likely that had there been twenty races that year he would have still have had a 100% record of winning every race where he did not have a mechanical failure. However, he could only achieve what was possible. Ascari in 1952 was in the same position as Fangio had been two years earlier except for not having any failures. Had the season been longer the odds are that he would have had more wins.

There is one point of commonality with Fangio, Ascari and Vettel, that is that they all had a car which none of the other teams had a chance against. Had Vettel been in one of the other cars this season whilst <put your own driver's name here> was in the Red Bull the overwhelmingly likelihood would have been the number one Red Bull driver would have been doing the majority of the winning.

 

[Kewee]

I used to think the same Bill Boddy though I'm not sure anymore. There are only two other drivers I would rate to achieve the same in a Red Bull, Hamilton and Alonso, and I'm not sure about Hamilton. Vettel is obviously very very quick but he has also developed the ability to read a race and control the pace from the front. Two major strengths there, the very very quick puts him on pole and the ability to control the pace from the front does the rest. Alonso has the skill to reach the front from the first, second or third row when he's given a decent car and once he's at the front has always also had the ability to control the pace of a race so yes, maybe Alonso would match Vettel. Hamilton on the other hand can be blindingly quick but is very rarely able to read a race well enough to exercise the same control. He's been able to occasionally but not enough to match Vettel consistently. Just my opinion I should add.
I still believe we're seeing something very special in Vettel at present and I think his dominance may continue for some time yet, unless Rory Bourne comes up with a very good Ferrari next year. I think he just might.

 

[RasputinLives]

I think Vettel will get a closer run for his money next year (although I don't think it will be from Ferrari who seem a right mess) but I still wouldn't bet against him coming out on top.

Vettel has a knack of putting in a top level performance 9 times out of 10 where as others might be able to beat his top level performance with there top level (given the car) but can't produce it nearly as often.

No one should under estimate how amazing he is to be able to turn up week in week out and knock it out the park. No other driver on the grid has shown anything like that kind of consistancy in their careers.

 

[Blog Zbod]

Austin was Vettel's 10° consecutive podium. He also scored 11 consecutive podiums from Brazil 2010 to Silverstone 2011. Only two other drivers ever have scored (at least) 10 consecutive podiums, MSC and Alonso, and they both only did it once.

Austin also was Vettel's 10° consecutive front row start. He also is the only driver to have two strings of 10 front row starts. The other was 14 from Singapore 2010 to Silverstone 2011. The longest single streak is Senna's at 24, which pretty much trumps two strings of 10 in my book.

Austin was the 20° circuit Vettel has won on. Alonso is 2° among the current F1 drivers at 19. MSC won at 23 different circuits.

 

[Bushi]

The only remaining track he didn't win yet is Hungaroring.

Edit: For next year he also didn't win at the Hockenheimring.

Don't think any driver has won all GP's on the calender........then again probably schumacher did.

 

[Bill Boddy]

I bet Vettel will never win an F1 race at Aintree or Brands hatch.

 

[Kewee]

I think Vettel will get a closer run for his money next year (although I don't think it will be from Ferrari who seem a right mess)

If Ferrari are a right mess where does that leave all the others, Alonso once again was runner-up in a car that wasn't good enough. Any difficulties the teams have had this season will mean very little next year, the changes are huge. Don't underestimate Rory Bourne, he's the only designer who has consistently bettered Newey. Obviously with Rory Bourne's strength Ferrari will be strong.