Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Sarinaide]

I must say that people normally find ways to loath the new guy that starts to win a lot, they hated Michael, they hated Alonso, and without any doubt there will be Vettel haters.

I actually like the kid, seems to have his feet on the floor, and he has ample talent and a really good car, Question is "how many"?

 

[teabagyokel]

TBY were you overcome by the occasion?

No, just really, really impressed

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

It was impressive given that Pirelli couldn't give a guarantee to Horner and Newey as to how long those Softs would last. (Newey was particularly emotional when they took the 1-2, if you noticed.)

Apparently Pirelli told RBR that it could be anywhere from "half a lap to five laps"!

That's why Webber came in on lap 3 and Vettel on Lap 5...and that's why Webber did two stints on the Primes.

It confirms that Webber's style is harder on the 2011 tyres/Vettel's style is easier on the 2011 tyres.

Part of the in-team differential in 2011 at Red Bull, then, has been Vettel's more delicate handling of the tyres whilst still being massively quick. Spa confirmed this.

 

[Sarinaide]

I will say that when Michael and Ferrari were unstopable, people always said "he only wins because of his car", to me that is a defeatists attitude. Sure any driver in Vettels position, be it Hamilton or Alonso would be expected to clean up with that car, but again there is a difference between "expected" and "doing", and Vettel is doing what is expected. The Ferrari and McLaren cannot compete, even if they fused the best of both cars, they cannot compete against the RB7, simply on the basis that the challengers cars are revised 2010 spec while the RB7 is a full years evolution ahead.

Nothing bad can be said about Vettel, a worthy double champion(to be)

 

[Slyboogy]

They cannot compete against the RB7? They sure can...and have proved it this season time and time again.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

They cannot compete against the RB7? They sure can...and have proved it this season time and time again.

Totally!

They can indeed compete against the RB7. Well, at least Fernando can moreso than Massa.

They, however, have a tougher time competing against Vettel who has upped his game over his topsy-turvy Summer of 2010 enormously and is, as a result, brimming with confidence.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

they cannot compete against the RB7, simply on the basis that the challengers cars are revised 2010 spec while the RB7 is a full years evolution ahead.

No Sari. The McLaren is a revolution whilst both the Red Bull and the Ferrari are evolutions.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The Ferrari and McLaren cannot compete

They can. McLaren have won four races and Ferrari have won one. They can compete, they just have to give a bit more than the Red Bull to earn their victories.

I think it is fair to say that a win in anything other than a Red Bull this year is more remarkable. I don't think it is fair to say that Ferrari, McLaren and their drivers are incapable of remarkable performances.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

But when one RBR driver has 7 wins...whilst the other has 0 wins, then the theory of 'The Law Of Averages' has taken a hit somewhere along the line.

Yes, the RB7 is a very good car but when you look at it, you get the following:

- Some of Vettel's wins have been narrow affairs either over others (Malaysia/BUT, Spain/HAM, Monaco/ALO-BUT, Valencia/ALO) or over the other car (Turkey, Belgium).

- Webber hasn't finished just behind Vettel in 2nd in most of those 7 wins. In fact, Hamilton and Alonso have finished behind Vettel as often as Webber has with Button being the other driver to finish in 2nd behind Vettel.

That says something about Vettel, in my opinion. It points to the RB7 not being the dominant "race car" people think it is.

Yes, you can point to Canada and Germany and say Vettel didn't get the maximum...

...but than you can point to China and Spain and Monaco and Hungary and Belgium and say he got more out of those races than he should have given the circumstances in each of those races.

 

[teabagyokel]

Webber has finished ahead of Vettel once this season. That's not fantastic, but he just can't get off the line can he?

I don't think the Red Bull is as far ahead as it was last year, I do think Seb is on a new level.

 

[FB]

Hasn't Webber admitted he has struggled to come to get to grips (get to grips, geddit?) with the new Pirelli tyres whereas Seb has obviously learnt how to use them far more quickly. The car can obviously be used with them it just comes down to driving style (or ability?)

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I don't think the Red Bull is as far ahead as it was last year, I do think Seb is on a new level.

I agree on both counts.

Hasn't Webber admitted he has struggled to come to get to grips (get to grips, geddit?) with the new Pirelli tyres whereas Seb has obviously learnt how to use them far more quickly.

..it just comes down to driving style (or ability?)

Yes Horner told us this earlier in the season a few races before Webber admitted to it publically to the press.

Even at Spa, Webber decided to use a second set of Primes/Mediums (and, interestingly, not his 3rd set of Options/Softs) for his last stint. And, truth be told, he seemed comfortable/happy with them (which is in strange contrast to everyone else!)

It was as clear an indication (or proof) as any that, even at this stage of the year, Mark is harder on the Pirellis than Vettel (or Vettel is kinder to them than Mark).

I believe Pirelli has evolved their compounds intra-season...and it seems they'll continue to evolve them for 2012.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ray. Webber, my admission of all in the Red Bull camp has not been good on his tyres. Contrary to last year, he has been designated number 2 driver to his world champion team mate and has hence been given the slim pickings of both qualifying and race strategy and has even been called off fighting Vettel for position. It is clear to everyone that this is not a level playing field for the Red Bull drivers. This is to Vettel's credit for gaining the full support of the team, but looks bad for Red Bull as it flies in the face of their entire company brand projection. It's not great for the fans either, who have seen this all before ad turned off when the same thing happened with Schumacher and Ferrari.

Before you jump to Vettel's defence, I'm not knocking him. He is making the most of his hand on his own merit. His hand is, however, very much loaded with of aces.

Also Ray. It is interesting how your style of debate and inclusion of the full range of information varies depending on your motivations.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray. Webber, my admission of all in the Red Bull camp has not been good on his tyres.

Contrary to last year, he has been designated number 2 driver to his world champion team mate and has hence been given the slim pickings of both qualifying and race strategy...

...and has even been called off fighting Vettel for position. It is clear to everyone that this is not a level playing field for the Red Bull drivers.

Also Ray. It is interesting how your style of debate and inclusion of the full range of information varies depending on your motivations.

Sentence one makes perfect sense and is one main reason for the gap.

Sentence two makes no sense because in the last 8 races Webber has taken 3 Poles...Webber could have had 4 Poles in those 8 races but both Hamilton and Vettel trumped him at the last second in Belgium.

So that second sentence isn't based in fact.

The third sentence is factual for one race only and for reasons that anyone with even half a brain will tell you was correct. Besides, Webber didn't listen and he lost anyway. At the next race, Webber took 3rd place from Vettel so it's not as if he's been asked to give up a position by his team.

Your post smacks of someone with his own motivations...and of someone who doesn't like the fact that your favourite driver is being comprehensively out-scored by the WDC and WDC leader.

 

[teabagyokel]

...and has even been called off fighting Vettel for position..

This is quite usual in Formula One, and has been used by teams who would be unlikely to pull a FIFTY.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

This is quite usual in Formula One, and has been used by teams who would be unlikely to pull a FIFTY.

What's a FIFTY?

 

[FB]

Fernando Is Faster Than You (took me a little while to work it out)

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ah. Nice acronym there. Not disputingnthat team orders exist. It's quite clear that they have always been part of F1. The thingnI have a gripenwith is how this philosophy marries with Red Bulls ethos as a company. They primarily support extreme sports and team orders and extreme sports are something that will never marry. They should be brave enough not to use them. After all, they don't need to.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

It was Horner's job that day to make sure Webber didn't take Vettel out/Vettel didn't take Webber out. He had to send out the radio message even if Webber was going to disregard it.

In the end, Webber didn't listen to Horner anyway. Webber went flat out and he still got beaten by Vettel.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

It was Horner's job that day to make sure Webber didn't take Vettel out/Vettel didn't take Webber out. He had to send out the radio message even if Webber was going to disregard it.

That would wash in any other team but it leaves as bad a taste in my mouth as their fizzy drinks when Red Bull do it. Horner's job is to manage the team in a way that is both successful and promotes the Red Bull brand. I'm sure Webber wouldn't have "taken Vettel out" and if he did, they could put a very positive spin on it which would be much more in keeping with their brand and provide a better public image.

I've been on tour with Red Bull in the past riding in BMX shows and competitions. The team orders we saw at Red Bull were cowardly and that's just not fitting with their ethos. I would go so far as to say potentially damaging to the perception their demographic has of them. Red Bull Racing need to be careful not to become to detached from their foundations.

In the end, Webber didn't listen to Horner anyway. Webber went flat out and he still got beaten by Vettel.

Irrelevant. That's just you sticking your tongue out and blowing raspberries.