Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[teabagyokel]

I had an inkling that the boy couldn't mix it in the field and he is doing more to bolster this opinion than to dispel it.

To use cycling terminology, he finished at the head of the peloton but well behind the breakaway.

 

[RasputinLives]

Ninja - I was kind of being a bit sarcy if I'm honest and I know no one has said he's awful.

I agree with you that he maybe isn't the best in the pack but then again neither was Senna! He is a fantastic defensive driver though and its in his style to pull out a lead and hold on to it which he does amazingly (shhh don't mention Canada). I think he's proven that he is up there with Alonso and Hamilton and people use the 'Red Bull is the best car' because they don't want to believe it.

I respect the fact that people might not agree with me but for me class can be proven by getting results and you have to say Mr Vettel certainly does that.

 

[Sarinaide]

At the end of ones career it is Wins and Championships that define a driver, not Overtakes. The difference between Senna and where Hamilton is at present (could all change) is that Senna behind the aggression had a certain race craft matched with a PR approach, all rolled into 3 world championships and 50+ (I stand corrected) GP wins. Hamilton in all fairness to the man is nothing like Senna, other than the abiltity to be aggressive.

Like I said Hamilton is young enough to change that fact, but it is hard considering you have Vettel also developing and in a good car, you have Alonso ever consistent and potentially himself capable of reaching 40+ GP wins and the other challengers happen to be Button, Webber and Massa. We also have to believe that Rosberg and if Kubica comes back and gets a good ride, they may take wins too, so it will be very difficult for Hamilton to get anything close to being like Senna, it is disrespectful to both drivers to even concieve that thought.

I liken this to calling Vettel the next Schumacher, Vettel has the potential to do great things but he will never be a Michael Schumacher come hell or high water.

On the issue of Vettel, minor blip....he is a boy learning his craft, he has the car so I don't see why he can't progress. It was a difficult race for him and to get 4th out of it is a great result in the circumstances.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

At the end of ones career it is Wins and Championships that define a driver, not Overtakes.

I didn't bother reading the rest ecause you started with a sweeping generalisation.F1 means different things to different people and the measure of one's career will be on different terms depending on who you are. If all we look at is the record books then we discount the possibility that many drivers have over achieved and many have underachiever relative to thier potential. Often a driver is not the only factor I. Whether he achieves this potential or otherwise.

 

[Sarinaide]

I didn't bother reading the rest ecause you started with a sweeping generalisation.F1 means different things to different people and the measure of one's career will be on different terms depending on who you are. If all we look at is the record books then we discount the possibility that many drivers have over achieved and many have underachiever relative to thier potential. Often a driver is not the only factor I. Whether he achieves this potential or otherwise.

So maybe Vettel see's himself as a lead from the front driver, he is comfortable with that, and not like he lacks the ability to overtake altogether, is he overachieving? based on the fact that most would agree the RB is the best car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

So maybe Vettel see's himself as a lead from the front driver, he is comfortable with that, and not like he lacks the ability to overtake altogether, is he overachieving? based on the fact that most would agree the RB is the best car.

The answer to that question depends on who you are. I would say not, given that he has been absolutely making the most of the opportunities he has had to deliver. That's not what I'm saying though, is it?

 

[Sarinaide]

Seb is Seb with all his ups and all his failures, he is expected to win the championship by virtue of turning a superior car advantage into victories, was that any different to what Michael did in his day?

I also see that earlier in the thread people saying that Seb is what he is because of the Car, frankly it is rubbish(edit) to, you drive what is under you and so be it, that what is under him is a mighty fine race machine that anyone will sell their own mum to drive.

I stick by my analysis on Vettel that he will mature a hell of a lot and will be better for it, every race and every win is an experience, which until now he has been very impressive. I will also say that I don't like the eventuality of driver threads resulting in "driver of drivers" scenarios, all 24 drivers are sufficiently skilled, some posses greater skills and all have downsides, I will be darned if Vettel doesnt.

As for over or underachieving, I guess it is a consideration of all factors, car, skill, conditions and mitigating factors that really determine that.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Seb is Seb with all his ups and all his failures, he is expected to win the championship by virtue of turning a superior car advantage into victories, was that any different to what Michael did in his day?

No, it isn't. Correct.

I also see that earlier in the thread people saying that Seb is what he is because of the Car

Where did you see this?

I stick by my analysis on Vettel that he will mature a hell of a lot and will be better for it

This is not an analysis. Analysis is retrospective. It's a prediction.

"driver of drivers" scenarios

What is a "drivers of drivers" scenario?

As for over or underachieving

As I have already clarified, I nor anyone else have said that he has overachieved.

 

[Sarinaide]

No, it isn't. Correct.

Where did you see this?

This is not an analysis. Analysis is retrospective. It's a prediction.

What is a "drivers of drivers" scenario?

As I have already clarified, I nor anyone else have said that he has overachieved.

By analysis, when you look at his Torro Rosso years to last season then look now, you see vast improvement all round as a driver, less of a gambit and I also think the car has a lot to do with that, but still, each race is experience and he seems very mature for his tender years.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

By analysis, when you look at his Torro Rosso years to last season then look now, you see vast improvement all round as a driver, less of a gambit and I also think the car has a lot to do with that, but still, each race is experience and he seems very mature for his tender years.

OK. That was an analysis rather than a prediction unlike your previous comment.

 

[teabagyokel]

Driver of Drivers stuff deleted

 

[RevMaxPower]

Ninja and Sari - let's call it a draw...

Next?

 

[Sarinaide]

I think I oversaw a comment about Vettel not looking himself for Germany of that sort, I think Martin Brundle and Co smacked it on the head when they said he is probably feeling a bit frustrated by the media claiming he is the "darling" of RB and "Webber is his donkey", or "He is where he is because of the car". Being a professional driver that must be really demeaning for him. Despite the dreaded finger he seems to be a bit of a easy to be around guy.

 

[Slyboogy]

That could be the factor.

But he was also struggling to get heat into his tyres like Button, and both are good at tyre management, well Button tends to struggle getting heat into them for the first 5-7 laps in a race anyway.

 

[Quintessentially]

"He clearly was not satisfied with the handling of his car and was fed up having to answer questions about Silverstone team orders"

"These days it is so unusual to see Vettel making unforced errors and his spin in the race only served to put him fully out of podium contention. But the fact that he still hauled in some decent points with fourth place, his worst finishing result since last September, rather puts it in perspective"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14275432.stm

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

That was quite a mighty lap in Q3 from Vettel at the Hungaroring. It was as 'perfect' as Hamilton's at Nurburgring 7 days earlier.

It was a lap that, basically, 'stole' Pole from McLaren. Pole at Hungary should have been McLaren's but Hamilton went wide on the final corner and got piped by Vettel. Inspite of Hamilton's admitted error, he (Hamilton) was still quicker than Button who, obviously then, didn't extract everything out of that McLaren.

10 out of 10, then, for Vettel in Hungarian qually. I don't think Alonso was a 10 in the session...and you can't say that Webber was either. I'm sure Alonso didn't extract the maximum from that Ferrari. Felipe put in a better time for once and Alonso was shell-shocked to be starting 5th!...but not as shell-shocked as Webber in the post-qually media scrum with Lee Mckenzie!

In the race, you have to say that it ought to have been a McLaren 1-2...The McLaren had the legs of RBR and Ferrari at this race. No question.

So, for Vettel to come away with 2nd - and only 3 or so seconds behind the winning McLaren - was a terrific achievement.

Making it sweeter was his over-take of Alonso for P3 (which turned out to be P2 at the end) while he (Vettel) was on the harder Prime/Soft tyre while Alonso was on the (theoretically faster (by about 8 or 9 tenths)) softer Option/Super Softs...and it wasn't as a result of Alonso spinning off like he'd done about 3 times by then!

Where are all the detractors who say Vettel can't over-take a driver and car of similar calibre and performance?

Are they all in hiding?

Anyway, 10 out of 10 for Vettel for Hungarian qually and race and for his increased choke-hold of the 2011 WDC!

 

[Slyboogy]

I agree there, that lap was great, no matter what Webber says about his DRS not working down that straight, it was mentioned that it would only give him a tenth, and he lost much more than that to Vettel.

However, a second is a great result for him, despite him coming in the pits late a fair few times costing him, but what I find confusing is, the last 10 laps, he was 9s behind Button, at the end he was 4.5s.

Can't give him 10 for the race, but 10 for qualifying

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Fantastic lap in quali. Otherwise he finished where his car should have, if you discount that there ought to have been another McLaren in front of him.

He got beaten in wheel to wheel racing again this week. Lewis did to Vettel exactly what Button did in to him in Canada.

I'm still here Ray and I'm still saying the same thing.

 

[Slyboogy]

He got beaten in wheel to wheel racing again this week. Lewis did to Vettel exactly what Button did in to him in Canada.

He passed Alonso round the outside, so I wouldn't see he got "beaten", nor would I say he cracked "under pressure" if under steering wide, then letting your car run wide rather than coming back on and spinning is what you call "cracking" then I can easily say Alonso cracked under pressure as he went off many times, as did Button, and last of all Hamilton's spin....

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Fantastic lap in quali. He got beaten in wheel to wheel racing again this week. Lewis did to Vettel exactly what Button did in to him in Canada.

I'm still here Ray and I'm still saying the same thing.

You're a Hamilton fan so I wouldn't expect any other response.

Suffice it to say, the McLarens are faster than Red Bulls these days. If they weren't, Hamilton wouldn't have forged his way through Vettel.

I'll defend Hamilton when he's to be defended. I think you know that judging by my posts today in the Hamilton thread.

Otherwise he finished where his car should have, if you discount that there ought to have been another McLaren in front of him.

He got beaten in wheel to wheel racing again this week.

Hamilton certainly didn't finish "where his car should have". Shame he couldn't translate his faster car advantage over Vettel by beating him fully/in the race. It's not as if Lewis had a mechanical problem and Vettel didn't.

How many races now that Lewis hasn't maximized his chances? Four? (Malaysia, Monaco, Canada...now this?)