Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Hamberg]

Hamilton is a great driver...but Vettel's not some lightweight.

Aaarrgghhh

Nobody is disputing that! But if you're going on those types of arguments Panis, Herbert and Frentzen are better than Schumacher because they beat him in Ligier, Stewart and Jordan.

You've not come up with anything substantial Ray, instead massively misconstruing what others are saying and producing the most tangential, non-arguments I've seen.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Vettel's not some lightweight.

Nobody ever said so.

All I'm saying is that it will be years from now until you can have an honest comparison between Seb and Lewis. Just about everybody on this forum is satisfied with the fact that we have 3-4 Top Tier drivers on the grid right now with very little between them. Which is why a post that implies one is better than the other by using some circumspect evidence from 3 years ago must be challenged.

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

Wasn't gonna get involved in this as it's not my thing but.

Ray stop digging yourself in a hole mate. We all know that Vettels a good driver but don't keep comparing him to Lewis when you clearly don't have the right facts.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Aaarrgghhh

Nobody is disputing that! But if you're going on those types of arguments Panis, Herbert and Frentzen are better than Schumacher because they beat him in Ligier, Stewart and Jordan.

What utter sillyness. Only you'd extrapolate what I wrote specifically about Vettel in Toro Rossos in later 2008 into some rubbish about Panis, Herbert and Frentzen being better than Schumacher! I saw the careers of Panis, Herbert, Frentzen and Schumacher in their entirety...and I certainly do not think what you wrote i'm implying.

This is a Vettel thread. But I suppose if i'm not praising Lewis as the Next Coming, then, according to you, i'm out of my mind. It simply isn't good enough for you that I think Hamilton is in my Top 2.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

All I'm saying is that it will be years from now until you can have an honest comparison between Seb and Lewis. Just about everybody on this forum is satisfied with the fact that we have 3-4 Top Tier drivers on the grid right now with very little between them. Which is why a post that implies one is better than the other by using some circumspect evidence from 3 years ago must be challenged.

It's a very fair comment. I 'like' it!

 

[Hamberg]

For the love of god.

I am not comparing them. You are Ray. I have merely pointed out inaccuracies and fantasies in your so called facts.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

The "fantasies" are on your part, namely thinking that i'm likening Vettel to the likes of Panis, Frentzen and Herbert and making some extrapolation about them being better than Schumacher.

And this is a thread about a driver. So if you can't "compare" them to each other, then what benchmark is one to use?

Regardless, you're clearly a Hamilton man so it's pointless for me to debate about anything that doesn't jive with your thinking. I'm done. You need not try and 'bait' me any further in this thread.

I wish you a good afternoon, Hamberg.

 

[FB]

and relax...

Ray, Hamberg, Keke - please calm down. There is no need for point by point rebuttles of every post someone makes or if some one extrapolates a point suggesting it's silly, it's the nature of discourse and discussion. I don't want to wield the moderator axe but I will if I have to.

Can I ask that everyone reads the posts carefully, counts to ten, reads them again, decides if the discussion has the potential to get out of hand and if they think it does just move on. It would also be helpful if the passive/agressive nature of some of the post could be turned off.

Thanks guys.

 

[Hamberg]

No baiting involved Ray and I'm definitely not a "Hamilton man"

And apologies I may not agree with you but using the term "fantasies" was far too strong.

edit: I wrote the above before I saw FB's post!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Fair enough, Hamberg and FB. Have a good afternoon all.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Can I just say before the thread is locked

I think Vettel is way better than Kimi was

 

[Bill Boddy]

.....

That's 3 times Vettel out-scored Hamilton's superior McLaren in a Toro Rosso in the last 5 Grand Prix races of 2008.

And four times out of five that Alonso in the dog of a Renault beat Vettel.

But does that prove the Alonso was/is better than Vettel? Of course not, facts and statistics can be twisted to suit the purpose you want them to.

The first time that I saw Vettel was during the Thursday afternoon pit walk at Hockenheim 2008. He was busy chatting to the youngsters, since it was Germany he was due at the press conference. In the end they had to nearly drag him away to mouth platitudes to the waiting journos. I was impressed by his attitude and also by his driving.

I did get upset when he won in Monza, all those years that I had followed Minardi and he got their first win when I was not there.

Since then he has had great success, but like almost all drivers he was in the best car when he won the WDC.

 

[Hamberg]

This may be slightly off topic but Bill reminded me of how good he is with the fans and not necessarily his fans.

Anyone who was at Silverstone knows he got a fair bit of stick from the crowd (Mark Webber's front wing gate), he had a pretty awful race yet still came out at the after show party, stayed the longest and did this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7WZ8k2sEas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAJTzx4tIOI&feature=related

He was great to watch.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

And four times out of five that Alonso in the dog of a Renault beat Vettel.

But does that prove the Alonso was/is better than Vettel? Of course not, facts and statistics can be twisted to suit the purpose you want them to.

That Renault was a "dog" in the 2nd half of 2008? And you're counting the time they cheated by crashing the Number 2 car at Singapore so Alonso could fulfill the promise of a Regie victory as one of those four times?

Regardless, I do understand and agree with what you're saying in your second sentence. Point taken, Bill. Cheers.

 

[Bill Boddy]

That Renault was a "dog" in the 2nd half of 2008...

I'm glad that you agree with me there.

And you're counting the time.... Alonso could fulfill the promise of a Regie victory ....

Once again we are in agreement.

.... I do understand and agree with what you're saying .... Point taken, Bill. Cheers.

Nice of you to say so.

Oh, I do like this quote thing, it's so helpful.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

....Oh, I do like this quote thing, it's so helpful.

I'm so glad I could entertain you there, Bill!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I was thinking about the brutality of the Red Bull Young Driver Academy.

We've had Liuzzi, Klien, Chandook, Friesacher, Doornbros all come and go through their ranks at some level, including F1. We've had Speed (a marketable American) and Bourdais (a marketable multiple Indy Car champion) getting dumped mid season. Alguersauri, too, is on the mid-season chopping block with Ricciardo knocking on the door...and highly touted prospects from every corner of the planet like Ammermuller, Hartley and Zaugg given walking papers.

If you don't perform, you get thrown to the wolves very quickly and there's so many of them.

Vettel came through that programme (obviously) and it got me thinking. Red Bull gave him that seat because he quite obviously earned it. That Toro Rosso in 2008 was the same as the Red Bull in 2008...i.e. it was a mid field car and he took it to victory from the front...Jimmy Clark-style.

I think this stuff about Hamilton and Alonso being the two best drivers is based on what happened in 2007.

Is there a chance that they aren't the two best? That Vettel might be faster and smarter than at least one of them?

 

[Hamberg]

Is there a chance that they aren't the two best?

No. McLaren Young Drivers Programme is as if not more brutal, they dropped Hamilton at one point and he wasn't allowed up through the ranks until he won championships, there were occasions Vettel wasn't even beating his team mate and had no such clauses. VMM drop young drivers very easily.

As for Alonso, well for him to get a drive in F1 when he did was unheard of for his age and he did it all on merit from what he'd achieved in his relatively short career and what he has achieved in F1 is superb.

By the way neither driver won the WDC in 2007, I think the stuff is based on hard facts about what they've achieved in their careers.

I personally think RBR bring drivers into F1 too early.

 

[MCLS]

Ray, I don't want another sequence of posts on the Italian GP 2008 and how good the Toro Rosso was etc etc, it has been done to death the last few weeks and I don't think it needs bringing up again. Cheers.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ok, I will leave this alone. I started the discussion looking at all those drivers from the Young Driver Academy. I listed a pile of drivers that got axed very quickly. Perhaps i'll leave it at that. Cheers.