Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Lewywo4]

It was Vettel's first year in the F3 series and it was Lewis his 2nd season with a top team.
If you want to compare like that, than you can say Rosberg beat Hamilton on raw talent in GP2.

How did Rosberg beat Hamilton with raw talent in the GP2 series, when they both had 5 wins, and both won the champions in their first attempts? Speaking of raw talent, how could anyone ever forget that breathtaking and stunning performance at the 2006 GP2 race in Turkey by......Lewis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbjRFd205qo&feature=related

And i don't think you can compare the two if they aren't in the same car and under the same circumstances.

Here's a pretty good example of an excellent fight between these two, and going at each other, back in 2005.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn25til6wiU

 

[Lewywo4]

It was Vettel's first year in the F3 series and it was Lewis his 2nd season with a top team.
If you want to compare like that, than you can say Rosberg beat Hamilton on raw talent in GP2.

How did Rosberg beat Hamilton with raw talent in the GP2 series, when they both had 5 wins, and both won their championships in their first attempts? Speaking of raw talent, how could anyone forget that breathtaking and stunning performance at the 2006 race in Turkey by.....Lewis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbjRFd205qo&feature=related

 

[Hamberg]

Who is this thread about again?

 

[FB]

Anyone is welcome to start a Lewis Hamilton thread if they so wish.

 

[TN23]

Vettel is undoubtedly good- and seems to be much better this year. I thought performance-wise, he had a rather poor year, his worst since he entered F1- but the car saved him somewhat.

What naffs me off is when you get those that pretend Vettel is some kind of otherworldy god. Remember Melbourne this year, people (including the BBC) were queuing up to say how Vettel had put in a Spa '63, Spain '81, Donington '93 type performance when what he actually did was cruise around for fifty-odd laps.

He's good, very good, but don't get too carried away!

 

[FB]

We do seem to be recycling many of the arguments being made in the Canada PQR thread. I appreciate that it's difficult post race to draw a clear distinction between what happened in the immediate aftermath of a race and discussions about the subject of the thread but if we could try to keep things in there place it would be good.

Cheers

FB

 

[Cookinflatsix]

In conclusion of my contribution to the Vettel thread

I believe that Seb is good but is flattered by some type of 1/2 second magic button boost in Q3 and a few times every race.

As this might be related to the off throttle issue, I will reserve judgement on whether he has become one of the greats until after Silverstone at least

 

[RasputinLives]

I wish my car had magical boost button so I could to get to work and back quicker. Are they thinking of developing it for a road car?

 

[FB]

: off topic: Just attach some roof bars and fill them with ladders and scaffolding poles Rasputin, then you go everywhere at 120 mph.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I was thinking about "when" Vettel started to "beat" the "established order" (Hamilton being at the top)...and it happened as early as September, 2008. Sure he beat everyone in Italy in '08...but he also 'beat' Hamilton in Japan and, more famously, in Brazil that year too. In a Toro Rosso.

That's 3 times Vettel out-scored Hamilton's superior McLaren in a Toro Rosso in the last 5 Grand Prix races of 2008.

If you think about it, Hamilton's been the one looking at the back end of Vettel's cars for the majority of their careers. Since early September, 2008. Perception is all relative.

This is no slight against Hamilton (who I rate Top 2) but it goes to show you "when" the goal posts started to shift and it makes you wonder about perceptions when the record states something else.

 

[Hamberg]

Ray give "us" some "comparisons" in normal conditions please. That's "my" "perception" of your "perception".

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Ray give "us" some "comparisons" in normal conditions please.

My fine Hamberg, I edited my post (#330) to state I rate Hamilton as Top 2. Re read that post.

What are "normal conditions"? 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. These are the conditions. What else is there? In my re-edit, I point out that Vettel, in an inferior Toro Rosso, "beat" Hamilton in Italy, Japan and Brazil - three of the final five races of that year. And Vettel's been pounding out the wins since then. Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't RBR only finish 7th in the WCC in both 2008 and 2007? They weren't known as an established and winning team before Vettel arrived there. Vettel gelled with RBR. Hamilton was recruited into the 2nd most successful team of all time. A team with pedigree. Red Bull was no such team before Vettel's recruitment.

Cheers

 

[Speshal]

Red Bull was no such team before Adrian Newey's recruitment.

Cheers

Fixed that for you.

 

[Hamberg]

I think you are underestimating Red Bull's resources, look who they had working for them. You don't often get overnight miracles occur and I don't doubt that Vettel is better than Coulthard and Webber and also one of the top drivers at the moment and has been a good looking prospect for some time.

What is grating me is that you are acting as though Vettel stepped foot in an HRT equivalent and rocked the world and that Red Bull's success is all down to him and that he is the future goat. Vettel is one of the most groomed drivers on that grid at the moment and actually has been given backing from a young age from an outfit that might not have the F1 history but has got it's finger in many racing and sponsorship pies. They are by no means a poor team and they have the most successful aerodynamicist working for them, pre Vettel.

I'm not dismissing his achievements and you'll see i've disagreed with Cookin's assessment of him. What I will refute is your version of events which quite frankly largely seems to be concocted from inside your head. If you are going to make claims about him, make sure they are balanced and then it won't seem so hero worshipping crazy.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

First of all, Newey's McLarens weren't exactly pulling off umpteen wins between 00-04...and his 08 car for Red Bull wasn't even a match for Vettel's Toro Rosso! It finished 7th in the WCC and that was Newey's 3rd year at Red Bull. Having said that, Vettel and Newey have gelled well together.

I think you are underestimating Red Bull's resources...What is grating me is that you are acting as though Vettel stepped foot in an HRT equivalent and rocked the world and that Red Bull's success is all down to him and that he is the future goat. Vettel is one of the most groomed drivers on that grid at the moment and actually has been given backing from a young age.

McLaren's resources are even more vast and the same could be said of Hamilton, who was probably even more groomed and stepped straight into a Top car. Lewis never drove an HRT equivalent in '07 or '08...whereas Vettel at least knows what it's like to drive for a team (Toro Rosso) with a history (Minardi) of mainly being back of the grid and never ever having a Podium.

I have no national bias. I'm not a German. I'm not English either. I just look at facts. Let's just agree to disagree about some things. Having said that, I don't want to repeat that I rate Hamilton Top 2. That should be good enough.

Lastly, of course Red Bull's success isn't down to Vettel. There are hundreds of people there. It's a team effort. It would be silly to state otherwise.

 

[Hamberg]

First of all, Newey's McLarens weren't exactly pulling off umpteen wins between 00-04...and his 08 car for Red Bull wasn't even a match for Vettel's Toro Rosso! It finished 7th in the WCC and that was Newey's 3rd year at Red Bull. Having said that, Vettel and Newey have gelled well together.

McLaren's resources are even more vast and the same could be said of Hamilton, who was probably even more groomed and stepped straight into a Top car. Lewis never drove an HRT equivalent in '07 or '08...whereas Vettel at least knows what it's like to drive for a team (Toro Rosso) with no history of even being on the Podium.

I have no national bias. I'm not a German. I'm not English either. I just look at facts. Let's just agree to disagree about some things. Having said that, I don't want to repeat that I rate Hamilton Top 2. That should be good enough.

I am looking at the facts and yours are skewed. Hamilton was kept in feeder series when Vettel was put in an F1 car. Why? Because McLaren wanted to make sure he was ready to step into a top team which Vettel wasn't at that point hence the different route RBR take of moving their prospects into a training team. Vettel was given F1 experience much earlier.

And I'd like to see your evidence that Hamilton was more groomed as from what I've seen there was an expectation, in fact it was contractual that Hamilton had to win championships before getting that drive, he was dropped at one point and had a few races on his own and he was never given his team mates chassis because they were beating him.

I don't care about where you are from, I personally think Alonso has achieved the most with the least experience of the modern day drivers and this isn't a my driver is better than your driver thread.

It just really pisses me off when assumptions are made, incorrectly, about histories and impacts.

 

[KekeTheKing]

I'm sorry that I even saw this thread right now Ray.

In 2008 the Red Bull and Toro Rosso chassis was basically the same exact thing. And the TR was fitted with a Ferrari engine as well. So lets not act like the Toro Rosso was well off the sister Red Bull, or even seconds behind the rest of the field. The next evolution of that car nearly came back to win the title after dominating the second half of 2009.

And you might want to watch Italy 2008 again and tell me who was the fastest man in that race. Japan 2008 as well maybe, because I can't imagine getting punted to the back of the field could help your race.

We don't need to constantly compare drivers entire careers after every Grand Prix, let alone pick and choose certain moments from seasons past without acknowledging the context of these events.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

In 2008 the Red Bull and Toro Rosso chassis was basically the same exact thing. And the TR was fitted with a Ferrari engine as well. So lets not act like the Toro Rosso was well off the sister Red Bull, or even seconds behind the rest of the field.

Keke, I know all that. Yet those cars - whether it was an STR-Ferrari or an RBR-Renault - certainly wasn't as good as that year's McLaren or Ferrari.

I was merely stating that Vettel was still able to account for himself without the use of a McLaren or a Ferrari. And he accounted for himself better than Bourdais, Webber and Coulthard at the very least. Are we not allowed to illustrate instances that show Vettel's class before he stepped into RB5s, RB6s and RB7s?

 

[KekeTheKing]

Sure you can. But when you point to three races, two of which had rather extenuating circumstances, I have to call you on it.

Then you come back with a different argument. Every thread is the same.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Sure you can. But when you point to three races, two of which had rather extenuating circumstances, I have to call you on it.

So how else is someone suppose to beat superior cars? When, in the history of F1, did a driver - other than Senna - in an inferior car beat drivers in superior cars three times over 5 races...unless they were "extenuating" circumstances? Perhaps you can think of them, but it wasn't a constant occurence.

This whole thing started by me wondering "when" did Vettel started to "beat" the "established order"...and I came up with the three races in Autumn of 2008 when he was still in a car that was not a front runner. Yes they were extenuating circumstances...but how else was he supposed to do it?

Hamilton is a great driver...but Vettel's not some lightweight.