Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[RasputinLives]

but thats not a 'boost' button they use in quali or on a couple of laps? I'm confused

 

[Fenderman]

but thats not a 'boost' button they use in quali or on a couple of laps? I'm confused

I think the term "boost button" is a conspiracy theory. If RBR had one the scrutineers would have looked for it, found it and most likely the FIA would have banned it. I could be wrong, mind you. it's only what I have gleaned from the tech' info' that we get drip fed. I fear though that we are drifting from the thread. There are threads on the EBD and other technical things elsewhere and maybe the answers to your most valid of questions can be found there. If I come across the appropriate thread I will edit a link into this post.

Edit: There's a bit of discussion about the EBD here:

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/off-...so-who-will-be-on-pole.2996/page-2#post-58662

but more on the tech side here:

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/tech...be-restricted-or-not-as-the-case-may-be.2674/

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Do I miss the news on the secret boost trick? I genuinally haven't heard about it before. When was this discovered?

'Boost button' is a metaphor for the limited use performance gain trick obvious on Sebs Red Bull

Why do you think Brundle always says at the start of the race 'and Seb has pulled a big lead already' this type of performance advantage is then not evident for most of the race till maybe later, fuel permitting

To make it clearer, this trick is likely to be the use of 100% off throttle blowing of two 5 cm gaps in the cars floor as well as the normal channeled blowing of the starter motor gap

It's likely that the Mclarens floor is not blown as well in 3 places when the off throttle engine map is used

Anyway, I don't have to find the exact trick to observe that Seb has a huge advantage in q3 and a few times in the race only, Webber doesnt seem to have it, maybe as cover

This to me makes 'all the difference and makes Seb look much better,

I remember Lewis alluding to something like this before, and could be why he went to see Horner

Anyone who thinks that pattern is not a metaphoric 'boost button' should look at what happened when Seb was unable to use it in Canada to keep ahead of Button (the driver, not the metaphor)

It could also be why Horner is angriest about the impending ban on 100% exhaust blowing off throttle

Sometimes it pays to look at races and performances carefully instead of wait for media or team reports

 

[Fenderman]

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/the-vettel-thread.2464/page-15#post-58933

That is indeed what I was referring to in my two previous posts and, yes, a metaphor may be a more appropriate term but it is becoming more of a "dubious conspiracy theory" as the phenomenon of "Chinese Whispers" changes the story over time.

As I say, the limitations on it's use with regard to fuel consumption and the effects of the high temperatures involved on the car that would arise from constant use does mean that it's usefulness and effectiveness is limited in a race. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

 

[Bushi]

2005 in F3, cars pretty much equal, Lewis betters Seb on raw talent and racecraft
These are not attributes that wait till F1 to manifest
Red Bull are fully sponsoring Seb before his move into F1

Finally, although the VMM is recently comparable to the RBR, there is still a small matter obvious to unbiased observers
Namely the magic boost trick deployed in Q3 and a few times in the race that give half a second a lap advantage

It makes Seb look very good to casual observers, they believe it's the driver that can pull a half second in Q3 and in the first lap or so of the race and later when an escape is needed, apart from these few laps he is no quicker than Lewis

Without it we see Seb crack like he has always done

It was Vettel's first year in the F3 series and it was Lewis his 2nd season with a top team.
If you want to compare like that, than you can say Rosberg beat Hamilton on raw talent in GP2.

And it is Seb that puts of half of a second, maybe he gets more performance against the other teams, but what about Webber? He was/is a master in qualifying, yet his teammate puts him on half of a second and even a full second at the beginning of the season. And even without the 'magical boost' he scored 10 pole positions in 2010 and 1 in 2008.

And i don't think you can compare the two if they aren't in the same car and under the same circumstances.

 

[RasputinLives]

I think the term "boost button" is a conspiracy theory.

oh its just a theory! I honestly thought I'd missed something then. I guess we'll find out when its banned. To be honest I think its probably more to do with set-up - I think when the Red Bull either has about 3 laps of fuel or a full tank its working at its optimum. We've seen that when we to the point when their all running half tanks the Mclaren and Ferrari comes into its own. Its probably all to do with weight distribution and how a driver lets the car set up. I'm not buying into any nitro button theory sorry.

Anyways - as I keep saying. However superior you think someones car performance is they still have to get the results at the end of the day and we've seen a lot of drivers who haven't got anywhere near the results Seb has.

I guess we're all entitled to our opinions but I never get why people like to rubbish the skill of their fave drivers rival. Surely if their rival is an ace and they beat them that just makes them look better.

Anyways - Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso are the best 3 drivers in F1 for me at the min - closely followed by Button - I wouldn't have said that 2 years ago but I think he's proved we all under estimated him.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

The post about a magic button is in response to one suggestions that Vettel is the best driver

I haven't heard anyone 'rubbish' Vettel as a driver

Just mentioning observations that explain that Vettel, although a top three driver is not suddenly the best of the three

Explaining mitigating circumstances is not rubbishing a driver

There is no real proof that Vettel is better than Button without a better car

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Well there goes my theory then, thanks for that Fender.

MCLS, you were actually not far off the mark. Koba finished 16th in the 2008 GP2 Championship...and he also finished 16th in the 2009 GP2 Championship.

In '08 he finished behind Pantano, Senna, di Grassi, Grosjean, Maldonado, Buemi, Petrov, Chandook, d'Ambrosio and the like...

In '09 he finished behind (rookie) Hulkenberg, Petrov, di Grassi, Grosjean, Maldonado, d'Ambrosio, Perez, and others.

I hardly think his GP2 Asia success is noteworthy. Even then he only won 2 out of 12 races and finished 2nd in 2 others. [Hulkenberg, for instance, only took part in 4 races] Hardly a dominating performance in a weaker series.

GP2 is a bigger test than GP2 Asia...and Koba didn't even finish in the Top 10 or Top 12 two years running.

So, Koba is a "late bloomer". No one was rating him in anyway when he got the call to step into Glock's Toyota in his team's and country's home Grand Prix. Had Glock not been such a dissapointment and binned that very good Toyota in Japan, we may never had a look at Kamui.

 

[RasputinLives]

woah woah woah - I wasn't suggesting you were rubbishing Vettel Flat six - I was just asking after the boost thing and then talking in general.

As I've said on a previous thread you can put Mitigating circumstances on every race and every championship ever. You could say both Lewis and Alonso have only won championships in the best car in the field - please lets not debate this though - but we've seen them do things in an under powered Renault and an under developed Mclaren that show their quality.

Where Vettel is concerned I stand by his season in Torro Roso - not just the win but he scored more points than all the Torro Roso driver before and since put together even with the change in scoring system.

 

[MCLS]

I've moved the posts about Schumacher over to the Schumacher thread

 

[Sarinaide]

I think the problem in general is fans are fans and die hard loyal to the one they support, so when another seems like vettel to ursurp the status quo, and literally run away with the title then it becomes a huff and puff scenario. I really think that we should avoid catagorising one or assessing one on the scale of greatness but rather look at the now.....

1] You can't be champion with an iffy car, it has to be by and large competitive or the best car.
2] Because you have the better car there is more expectation to deliver, 5 wins and 2 seconds not bad going.
3] For his age, the sky is the limit.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Where Vettel is concerned I stand by his season in Torro Roso - not just the win but he scored more points than all the Torro Roso driver before and since put together even with the change in scoring system.

Yes. And didn't he out-score both Webber and Couthard in the Number 1 team too?

In 2008, in the Toro Rosso, Vettel finished in 8th place in the WDC behind 2 McLarens, 2 Ferraris, 2 BMWs and Alonso's Renault. He scored 35 points to Webber's 21 and Coulthad's 8 and Bourdais' 4!

He out-scored the combined scores of all the other three "Red Bull" drivers. Quite incredible!

 

[teabagyokel]

1] You can't be champion with an iffy car, it has to be by and large competitive or the best car.

Here is the full list of every driver to win the World Drivers Championship and not the other one, with the exception of those who drove before 1958.

1958	Mike Hawthorn	Ferrari	Vanwall
1973	Jackie Stewart	Tyrell	Lotus
1976	James Hunt	McLaren	Ferrari
1981	Nelson Piquet Sr.	Brabham	Williams
1982	Keke Rosberg	Williams	Ferrari
1983	Nelson Piquet Sr.	Brabham	Ferrari
1986	Alain Prost	McLaren	Williams
1994	Michael Schumacher	Benetton	Williams
1999	Mika Hakkinen	McLaren	Ferrari
2008	Lewis Hamilton	McLaren	Ferrari

[td]Year[/td][td]Driver[/td][td]Constructor[/td][td]Constructors' Champion[/td]

Whether you'd argue that some of them were actually in the best car or not, it is striking how rarely that has happened!

 

[MCLS]

S Vettel 35 points
M Webber 21 points
D Coulthard 8 points

Vettel scored more than the pair of them put together.

 

[Sarinaide]

Here is the full list of every driver to win the World Drivers Championship and not the other one, with the exception of those who drove before 1958.

Whether you'd argue that some of them were actually in the best car or not, it is striking how rarely that has happened!

I think what I meant was that you can't win with a midfield or back end car, you need a competitive drive to be able to win the drivers championship, whether it is the outright best or among the best, so the issue of "vettel drives the best car" is completely irrelevent.

 

[teabagyokel]

I think what I meant was that you can't win with a midfield or back end car, you need a competitive drive to be able to win the drivers championship, whether it is the outright best or among the best, so the issue of "vettel drives the best car" is completely irrelevent.

Yes, I agree. I was just using a statistic to agree with you!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

S Vettel 35 points
M Webber 21 points
D Coulthard 8 points

Vettel scored more than the pair of them put together.

So, was it "the car" or "the driver"? Was the Toro Rosso much superior to the Red Bull? And why did Bourdais only score 4 points? Anyone have any input?

And...then there's 2007 when - in only his 5th race in F1 for Toro Rosso - he had the car up to 3rd in attrocious conditions behind leader Hamilton and Webber. That's the race in which Alonso binned the McLaren into the armco of his own accord with the Championship at the high pressure point.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Vettel is a top top driver, that much is obvious

To say he is the best and that he has unnerved Lewis and Alonso with his ability is reaching a little

My observation is that now that the cars are a lot more equal during the race, the difference is now attributable to this massive one lap advantage seen in Q3, the first lap or two and then towards the end of the race if enough fuel remains

Apart from those few laps Vettel is not suddenly way fastest as is being suggested

 

[The Pits]

To be honest, I am not going to discuss whether he is better than Lewis or fernando, as personally I do not feel like I am able to, as has been mentioned there are good and bad from all of them.

vettels does have an uncanny knack of pulling out a lap in qualifying when it matters, however, I for one will be interested to see how he comes with his lead this season, especially if the hot blown diffuser rules closes up the front of the pack. last year he was chasing the wdc, and to be fair, he did a better job than he did in 09, albeit in a relatively speaking far superior car.

being 60 points in the lead is a significant advantage, but it equates to 5 points per race, and is not insurmountable, especially if any of the flowing pack can overtake, then it will be all about how he can handle the pressure, in what is a new scenario for him.

 

[Sarinaide]

To say he is the best and that he has unnerved Lewis and Alonso with his ability is reaching a little

I think it is RBR that have created a collosus image that has unerved its competitors, right now McLaren and Ferrari are really reacting to or going through the motions of what has been lights out thus far for RBR.