Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Quintessentially]

Vettel is certainly fast no question about that but I find nothing exciting about his driving style personally, especially on the few occasions he's fallen amongst the midfield pack and has had to fight his way up. It goes back to the question marks over his ability to race wheel to wheel and some of the moves he pulled off at Silverstone last year are best described as clumsy and underwhelming. Let’s not forget Whitmarsh questioning his driving credentials when he t-boned Jenson at Spa last year.

 

[Lewywo4]

I case anyone hasn't noticed I think Seb V is one of the most exciting things to come to F1 for many years, in the same vein as Hamilton - fast, occasionally unpredictable, certainly in the best car at the moment but he certainly wasn't at Monza in 2008.

It's true that Sebastian didn't have the best car at Monza in 2008, but I do believe that he benefited by Hamilton's disastrous tire selection decision during Q2, and also was compounded for Lewis, who then was also called in to be weighed during that same session, resulting in him starting the race in 15th place.

 

[Quintessentially]

Monza 2008 was an excellent performance by Vettel no doubt about that. It helped that the race started behind the SC and most of the major players qualified from midfield to lower end of the grid..

 

[MCLS]

Not to mention Mclarens failed gamble on more rain halfway through the race.

 

[Slyboogy]

When Vettels car is the third fastest and he win's races from 5th on the grid by overtaking the likes of Alonso and Hamilton, then he will truly be one of the greats.
At the moment he is a good driver in an exceptional car.

I for one don't remember Hamilton or Alonso passing great drivers in third fastest cars to win....

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

In 2007 Hamilton came along and got into a top car straight away...and matched Alonso. And, so, everyone thinks that no one could possibly be a match for him (or Alonso).

Hamilton had the luxury of not being in anything but one of the two fastest cars in 2007 and 2008 so, basically, that's why people imagine that no one else can be as fast as him...and if they are faster, then it's "only the car".

Well, Vettel didn't have the luxury of that in his first two years. What he did do was take a Toro Rosso (nee Minardi) to it's first and only ever victory.

Further, Red Bull finished a lowly 7th in the WCC in 2007 and 2008 and only won their first ever race in Vettel's hands. There's something about the way Vettel and the Red Bull cars have gelled as a unit...and, how do we know that Vettel isn't faster and better than both Hamilton and Alonso?

We don't and we won't until they get into the same car...and even then you may not be able to tell. What we can say is that Hamilton and Alonso - and their supporters - thought they would dominate Grand Prix racing at will, especially after Alonso got into a Ferrari. Well, it didn't work out that way...and they're all in a state of shock thinking it's all the car.

Vettel has done enough in Qually and in the races to the point of making Ferrari and Alonso think about "throwing in the towel" on 2011...while Hamilton's been outpsyched by Vettel's speed and consistency when, frankly, his car was good enough to win in Spain, Monaco and Montreal...three races at which Button's McLaren had the measure of Webber's Red Bull.

Pundit's are suggesting Lewis has lost his cool and made mistakes because of what Vettel has done in 2011. I can't disagree with those pundits.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Nice little theory Ray

However I suggest that the perception that Lewis is better than Seb is partially formed by the fact that in every race series so far Seb has only ever bettered Lewis once, coincidently currently, in a car known to have a massive performance advantage

 

[Fenderman]

I was going to post something but it's pointless. If I want to spend time on a magicless roundabout I'll go to http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=126719&st=0&start=0 where they seem to appreciate that sort of thing. I fear another thread lock coming on so I'll withhold my comment as it would most certainly have freed more worms.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

... I suggest that the perception that Lewis is better than Seb is partially formed by the fact that in every race series so far Seb has only ever bettered Lewis once, coincidently currently, in a car known to have a massive performance advantage

CFS, with all due respect, what happened years ago when Vettel was 13 and Lewis was 16 - and being backed by the might of McLaren - is irrelevent. Which specific series are you speaking of - other then Euroseries when Vettel was a rookie - and how old were they and who was McLaren backing, etc?

Besides, you really can't extrapolate careers from lower formulae to F1. Rates of development differ, not to mention luck and other factors. Frentzen was supposedly faster than Schumacher before arriving in F1. And so? In the end it's F1 and now that counts.

Hamilton had poor race meetings in Malaysia and, more recently, in Monaco and Canada. Even the English press are wondering if Hamilton's head has been done in by Vettel's speed and consistency. Vettel shouldn't have won in Spain and Monaco judging by McLarens' longer runs in Practice whereas Hamilton should have. Vettel won and Hamilton didn't...and then Vettel collected another 18 points more in Canada, a race meeting I attended. Indeed, McLarens have been faster on race pace than Red Bulls in the last three races - Spain, Monaco and Canada - and is proven by Button beating Webber in all three races, indeed sailing past Webber in Canada. These are facts and you can't argue with them.

Niether RBR nor McLaren think Vettel has a "massive performance advantage" in the last 3 Grand Prix races yet Vettel's widened his points lead over Hamilton at every single meeting. This is now, not when Lewis was 18 and Seb 14 or whatever.

 

[Hamberg]

Pundit's are suggesting Lewis has lost his cool and made mistakes because of what Vettel has done in 2011. I can't disagree with those pundits.

No they aren't. It's been suggested that he's frustrated his car isn't as good as the Red Bull. Hamilton does not fear Vettel and is not rattled by him the driver.

I do think Vettel is one of, if not the fastest one lap specialist out there, but I doubt very much that he has the racecraft of Alonso/Hamilton/Kubica. It doesn't matter what car you're in, I've seen them all in attack and defend scenarios and I wouldn't rate Seb any higher than Sutil for that.

And Seb was way more groomed through his career than Hamilton was, Vettel was beaten by team mates so given their chassis, he didn't need to win championships to get into F1, he got given a Torro Rosso at the same stage in their career that Hamilton was still in feeder series and he was in a race winning car at a younger age.

Now why don't you have a go at comparing him to Alonso if you want to carry this on...

This idolisation of Vettel is a bit much.

 

[RevMaxPower]

I agree H. In my opinion many of the 'lower order' drivers performed as well if not better than the so called 'stars'. Give any of them a Red Bull and I can't help but think it would be a very interesting exercise with quite possibly some 'eye brow raising' results.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

CFS, with all due respect, what happened years ago when Vettel was 13 and Lewis was 16 - and being backed by the might of McLaren - is irrelevent. Which specific series are you speaking of - other then Euroseries when Vettel was a rookie - and how old were they and who was McLaren backing, etc?

Besides, you really can't extrapolate careers from lower formulae to F1. Rates of development differ, not to mention luck and other factors. Frentzen was supposedly faster than Schumacher before arriving in F1. And so? In the end it's F1 and now that counts.

Niether RBR nor McLaren think Vettel has a "massive performance advantage" in the last 3 Grand Prix races yet Vettel's widened his points lead over Hamilton at every single meeting. This is now, not when Lewis was 18 and Seb 14 or whatever.

2005 in F3, cars pretty much equal, Lewis betters Seb on raw talent and racecraft
These are not attributes that wait till F1 to manifest
Red Bull are fully sponsoring Seb before his move into F1

Finally, although the VMM is recently comparable to the RBR, there is still a small matter obvious to unbiased observers
Namely the magic boost trick deployed in Q3 and a few times in the race that give half a second a lap advantage

It makes Seb look very good to casual observers, they believe it's the driver that can pull a half second in Q3 and in the first lap or so of the race and later when an escape is needed, apart from these few laps he is no quicker than Lewis

Without it we see Seb crack like he has always done

 

[MCLS]

Some people can be late bloomers though, look at Kobayashi, he was a drifter in GP2 but burst into F1 with a bang at the end of 2009 and isn't doing a bad job at all with Sauber.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

No they aren't. It's been suggested that he's frustrated his car isn't as good as the Red Bull. Hamilton does not fear Vettel and is not rattled by him the driver.../... Now why don't you have a go at comparing him to Alonso if you want to carry this on... / ...This idolisation of Vettel is a bit much.

Frustration is an emotion that messes up the mind. The MP4-26-Mercedes with it's KERS Hybrid system, since it's umpteen upgrades after Turkey, is every bit as fast in Grand Prix races (if not faster) than the RB6-Renault with it's KERS. You can surely see that, can't you? Yet Hamilton hasn't maximized his chances in these last three races. I don't think Hamilton 'fears' Vettel. Heck I don't think Hamilton fears anyone. But his mind management hasn't been very sharp lately.

Alonso. Well, I actually think Alonso does 'fear' Hamilton and that's why he won't partner him anywhere except (possibly, but not necessessarily) in a place like Ferrari and only if he's got political support and backing from people he's able to speak in Latin languages, something which Lewis doesn't do.

I'm not "idolising" Vettel. I'm defending him just as I would defend Lewis. I believe Lewis is more talented than either Button or Alonso and that's why i'm slightly dissapointed that he's farther back in the WDC standings than i'd like him to be.

If I were running a team, i'd chose Hamilton and Vettel. And i've felt this since Abu Dhabi in 2009.

2005 in F3

As I said, i'm not going to go by a series in which Vettel was a rookie aged 16 or 17 while it was Lewis' 2nd year as a 20 year old.

 

[Fenderman]

Some people can be late bloomers though, look at Kobayashi, he was a drifter in GP2 but burst into F1 with a bang at the end of 2009 and isn't doing a bad job at all with Sauber.

Kamui Kobayashi - Career Highlights thus far:

2003: Formula Toyota series - 2nd in championship with 2 wins, 4 poles
2004 Italian F' Renault 2000 series – 2 wins, 3 poles (3 podiums)
2005: F' Renault Eurocup - 1st in championship with 6 wins, 4 poles, 4 fastest laps (8 podiums)
2005: Italian F' Renault 2000 - 1st in championship with 6 wins, 9 poles, 8 fastest laps (11 podiums)
2008/9: GP2 Asia Series - 1st in championship with 2 wins, 2 poles, 3 fastest laps (4 podiums)

Finally, I haven't included info' on his other wins and podiums when he didn't win the series and apart from his DSQ in Australia he has finished in the points ever since. There is more to come from Kobi and I have no doubt at all that he would give Seb a run for his money in the same team.

 

[MCLS]

Well there goes my theory then, thanks for that Fender.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Lewis might have been older at that time, however he has proven to be much better than his peers in any series than Seb

Seb has not mastered any series in the same way until F1 where the cars are a major factor and he is known to have the best car with a huge performance advantage from a secret boost trick in q3, the first lap and maybe another lap later in the race

 

[Quintessentially]

There are extenuating circumstances to why Hamilton has now fallen behind Jenson in the championship. To use talent as the sole reason to find issue with his standing in the WDC standings is quite frankly absurd. It is worth mentioning that Vettel did not lead the standings until the very last race last year. I believe Vettel is more talented than Jenson, that's why I was slightly dissapointed to see him make a mistake due to pressure from Jenson in Canada - It's an argument that carries little weight in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[RasputinLives]

he is known to have the best car with a huge performance advantage from a secret boost trick in q3, the first lap and maybe another lap later in the race

Do I miss the news on the secret boost trick? I genuinally haven't heard about it before. When was this discovered?

 

[Fenderman]

Do I miss the news on the secret boost trick? I genuinally haven't heard about it before. When was this discovered?

I think that's a reference to the RBR having a mapping that allows limited use of near 100% "off throttle" EBD. Other teams have not yet replicated it and it's use is thought be limited due to deleterious effects on the engine.