Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Hamberg, here you go my friend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXhGymnqfDw&NR=1

 

[Hamberg]

That looks like it's way before Vettel even gets a front wheel level with Webber's rear wheel? All Webber has done there is his one defensive move to try and close the gap before Vettel gets there surely? He didn't turn in on Vettel when they were alongside.

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

For me Vettel is a good driver, not a great one yet.

He still needs to prove that he can win races by not starting on the first two rows. Plus he needs to prove he can overtake aswell for me to even consider him been a great yet. Plus at the Moment he's in argubly the best car on the grid by miles and would like to see how he handles it when the RB cars isn't the best and he and the team have to improve it.

 

[Quintessentially]

How many can genuinely see Hamilton or Alonso making the sort of error Vettel did at Canada and in the last lap, especially when the guy chasing you down is Jenson Button no disrespect (a good driver but not upper echelon)? Never mind the speed he was carrying at the time, Alonso and Hamilton would’ve seen him off. This kind of error explains why some still view him (Vettel that is) as unknown quantity and he’s made quite a few. See Valencia 010 for a similar error where the RB’s great traction and downforce levels saved the day. I’m one of those who believe in the subtlety between an error of judgement and a driving error and that Vettel has been guilty of the latter more than Hamilton and Alonso.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

How many can genuinely see Hamilton or Alonso making the sort of error Vettel did at Canada and in the last lap, especially when the guy chasing you down is Jenson Button no disrespect .

Button took care of Hamilton and Alonso in Canada...so everything else, with all due respect, is purely hypothetical.

Alonso made an error in Canada that cost him the race in 2005 when he hit a wall. Alonso then made 4 errors in Canada in 2007. Hamilton crashed into Raikkonen who was stationary in the pit lane at the red light in 2008...and ended both their races costing them hypothetical wins. ALL of them in less tricky conditions.

It's just this type of thinking - that only Alonso and Hamilton are the true greats of the era - that have dismantled them. They thought they would dominate GP racing. How utterly wrong they - and their fans - were and are. They've underestimated Vettel and Red Bull.

Hamilton and Alonso aren't Gods. They make mistakes. Same with Vettel.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

That looks like it's way before Vettel even gets a front wheel level with Webber's rear wheel? All Webber has done there is his one defensive move to try and close the gap before Vettel gets there surely? He didn't turn in on Vettel when they were alongside.

I don't agree with the first part, Hamberg. Regardless, that's not the move of someone leaving some/reasonable room for a teammate when they're under serious pressure from another team. That's still a move by someone leaning on his teammate and not caring about the 3rd place guy - from another team - zeroing in on them like a rocket.

 

[Hamberg]

Hamilton and Alonso aren't Gods. They make mistakes. Same with Vettel.

Quite right. So I think we can safely say that they are all great drivers and nobody is crushing or destroying the other and Vettel also is not a God?

 

[Hamberg]

I don't agree with the first part, Hamberg. Regardless, that's not the move of someone leaving some/reasonable room for a teammate when they're under serious pressure from another team. That's still a move by someone leaning on his teammate and not caring about the 3rd place guy - from another team - zeroing in on them like a rocket.

That's a completely different argument - you are treading on "Mark, Sebastian is faster than you, can you confirm you have understood" territory.

You are not obliged to give anybody room that are still behind you (and some would argue alongside). He is perfectly entitled to widen his car to stop Vettel getting into that space in the first place by making his one defensive move.

Webber did not move to the left or alter his line when Vettel had got alongside him, and by that I mean front wheels level with rear wheels.

 

[Quintessentially]

Button took care of Hamilton and Alonso in Canada...so everything else, with all due respect, is purely hypothetical.

Alonso made an error in Canada that cost him the race in 2005 when he hit a wall. Alonso then made 4 errors in Canada in 2007. Hamilton crashed into Raikkonen who was stationary in the pit lane at the red light in 2008...and ended both their races costing them hypothetical wins. ALL of them in less tricky conditions.

How many of those errors you mention happened in the last lap and when the guy behind is no speedy Gonzalez, never mind the pace of the Mac in the closing stages. I’m trying to paint a specific picture here. I also posted the subtlety between an error of judgement and driving error for a reason. Hamilton crashing into the back of Kimi in Canada or Rosberg joining the shunt can be put down to a lot of things but not driving error.
The problem is you insist on pitting Vettel against Hamilton and Alonso, telling us how he’s magically bested them mentally yet coveniently ignore the special circumstances he has found himself in and the fact that he buckled at the earliest sign of pressure where the engineering masterpiece that is the RB could not save the day, like it did in Valencia last year where he similarly cooked his braking point going into the corner. I don’t just believe that Hamilton and Alonso would’ve seen off Jenson in Canada but also these two have superior outright driving skills to Vettel. Besides, Vettel is yet to contend with the sort of competition Hamilton faced in 2007 and 2008. No doubt very talented but still a lot of question marks.

 

[Bill Boddy]

From the indicated video it appears that Webber moves over to the left slightly but still leaves space for Vettel to come past, i.e. an allowed defensive move.

Then we see Vettel come alongside, then Vettel comes past until his rear wheels are just behind Vettels front ones.

The next thing that happens is that Vettel moves over to the right and collides with Webber. During the whole time Vettel has been in sight Webber has not moved the steering wheel before the collision. After that he moves the wheel as he gets back control of his car.

Sorry, but this accident was clearly Vettel's fault, it took days for the RBR bosses to admit it but in the end they did.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Weather forecasting is a tricky business to get right even with the aid of radar. Currently all teams get the same feed with the same displays, this does not seem to be as accurate as some of the forecasting ten years or so ago when each team could supply it's own feed.

How many times have we seen messages from race control which state that it will start to rain in x minutes only for it to still not have started x+10 minutes later?

On Wednesday this week my wife and I went out during the afternoon. According to the weather forecast the rain had moved away from our area for the day. Being a pessimist I took my kagool with me, my wife did not take hers. In the end we returned back home some half an hour later, I was wet whilst my wife was dry.

All drivers try to steal a march on the rest of the field, in this case Ferrari thought that there might be an opportunity to use intermediates so they called in Alonso. They left Massa out, presumably so that they had a split strategy so that one would be right.

I simply do not see how this means that Alonso was in a panic, it was just a normal procedure. Many teams do this sort of thing.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I simply do not see how this means that Alonso was in a panic, it was just a normal procedure. Many teams do this sort of thing.

Alonso is meant to be an expert who brings 6/10s to a car. More than the norm is expected from him, that's why the greatest team paid big money to facilitate the hiring of the most complete driver

He should be making things happen

 

[Bill Boddy]

Alonso is meant to be an expert who brings 6/10s to a car. More than the norm is expected from him, that's why the greatest team paid big money to facilitate the hiring of the most complete driver

He should be making things happen

He delivered a second place in the third best car at Monaco, i.e. he should have been fifth. If that isn't making things happen what is?

 

[Dave Aston]

I know it's too early to say, but I think he will wind up as one of the best ever. The win in the Torro Rosso at Monza was good enough for me. Considering his age, I think he'll go closest of the current stars to matching Schumacher's records.

 

[Speshal]

This thread has now been merged with the general Vettel thread as it's covering the same ground.

 

[Bullet190]

When Vettels car is the third fastest and he win's races from 5th on the grid by overtaking the likes of Alonso and Hamilton, then he will truly be one of the greats.
At the moment he is a good driver in an exceptional car.

 

[RasputinLives]

Flumaxed refers to his special boost button, used in quali and in a few laps during each race, that give him a whopping speed advantage?

lol -I can just here the radio message now "Seb activate the flumaxer!"

I'm by no way saying Vettel is flawless as a driver. I mean he cracked at Canada and when Webber was beating him last year he cracked and took Webber out but right now he's bringing home the bacon. Both Alonso and Hamilton had the "only because they have a speed/car advantage" thrown at them too but evetually it was accepted that they are the class of the field. Sooner or later you have to accept that Seb is on a level with them. Yes the Red Bull is the best car in the field but look at the results he's getting. We've seen people with far larger car advantages not get the results he's getting.

As for the usual he can only do it from the front and he's never done it in a car thats not the best in the field. I stand by his one season at Toro Rosso.

 

[Abnash24]

pretender

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

All Webber has done there is his one defensive move to try and close the gap before Vettel gets there surely?

...You are not obliged to give anybody room that are still behind you (and some would argue alongside). He is perfectly entitled to widen his car to stop Vettel getting into that space in the first place by making his one defensive move.

From the indicated video it appears that Webber moves over to the left slightly..., i.e. an allowed defensive move.

So, we're all three in agreement that Webber did indeed - as indicated by my edit - move his steering wheel to the left and tried to close the gap. Correct?

Others are saying Webber "didn't move one centimetre" or the like...which we agree is not true. He leant on Vettel to make it tough for him. That's one point.

My point is that Webber actually didn't leave reasonable enough room for a teammate when both were under severe attack from another team's driver(s). (Vettel was forced onto the white line when Webber "widened" his car and made his "one move"...and they were both way over to the left of the road. That, to me, is completely unreasonable for a teammate given how fast Hamilton was zeroing in on them at that moment in time.) It's not as if they were alone up the road and under no pressure from anyone behind.

...you are treading on "Mark, Sebastian is faster than you, can you confirm you have understood" territory...

This scenario is totally different to Massa-Alonso at Hockenheim. At Hockenheim, the two teammates were not being zeroed in on by another team's driver (Vettel, who about 4 seconds behind and unable to close the gap). At no point did the other team's driver (Vettel) look like menacing the two Ferraris. Alonso looked quicker...but Massa wasn't slower than Vettel during that time.

Further - and in defence of Vettel - it's been already said by RBR later last year that Philbeam was to radio Webber to instruct him not to lean on Vettel given how very menacing Hamilton was looking at that very moment in time. Hamilton was materially faster than Webber and RBR was in danger of losing a win. Philbeam - for what ever reason - didn't relay the message. And, in defence of Vettel, he (Vettel) would have been under the impression that Webber would have gotten that message.

So how this is 100% Vettel's fault is beyond me. Yes, Vettel did crash into Webber...but Webber should never have leant so heavily on a teammate at a point in the race at which he (Webber) was holding up his teammate with an outside threat about to swamp them both.

Cheers.

 

[FB]

I case anyone hasn't noticed I think Seb V is one of the most exciting things to come to F1 for many years, in the same vein as Hamilton - fast, occasionally unpredictable, certainly in the best car at the moment but he certainly wasn't at Monza in 2008.

As to the Vettel/Webber crash at Turkey last year, please let's not go there again. We all have different views on what happened. For what it's worth the majority think it was Vettel's fault, the minority Webber but if there are any more post on an event which happened over a year ago I'll delete them. Sorry if this seems a bit draconian but we have done this too death.