Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[RevMaxPower]

He was until last weekend and if not for some very fortuitous good luck for Button relating to two collisions, he still would be.
You've taken a snapshot of the standings the one time Button has been ahead in the last 5 races and used it to justify your opinion.

Suffice to say, I won't be responding any further to you Ray, I find your posting style extremely aggressive and confrontational.

I agree entirely. How the heck Button's car kept going is beyond me. He was indeed very lucky!

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

You've taken a snapshot of the standings the one time Button has been ahead in the last 5 races and used it to justify your opinion. Suffice to say, I won't be responding any further to you Ray, I find your posting style extremely aggressive and confrontational.

Bro...I'm sorry you feel that way. That's definitely NOT my intention. I apologize to you in all sincerity. I'm still trying to shed off 606-type debating...so please forgive me...and have some patience with me. I'm a good guy. Thanks in advance.

 

[RevMaxPower]

Bro...I'm sorry you feel that way. That's definitely NOT my intention. I apologize to you in all sincerity. I'm still trying to shed off 606-type debating...so please forgive me...and have some patience with me. I'm a good guy. Thanks in advance.

Ray - stay positive - like Sebastian...

 

[Bill Boddy]

I would like to see your evidence showing that Alonso is losing his cool. If anything he is doing better than early on in the season where he was losing places at the start, Massa was actually doing better.

In Montreal Alonso did not crash out due to any mistake of his own.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Further, Vettel made less mistakes in 2010 than Hamilton made in 2008 and he made no more mistakes (and possibly even less so) then Alonso/Hamilton made in 2010.

I don't think that's true somehow, I also think its irrelevant in view of the fact that in 2008 Lewis was a second year rookie and in 2010 Seb was a veteran of how many years?

Its not just his speed thats flumaxed them but his consistancy. He has an ability in quali that neither of them have.

Flumaxed refers to his special boost button, used in quali and in a few laps during each race, that give him a whopping speed advantage?

I'm still trying to shed off 606-type debating...so please forgive me...and have some patience with me. I'm a good guy. Thanks in advance.

Ray, I often suggested that you and xiglly were one and the same, that could not have been the case as you are clearly articulate.....

I think that most members on this site pick up points that are subtle or even gently put across

 

[Lewywo4]

Absolute nonsense!

In 2010 Vettel threw away clutches of points at Turkey, GB, Hungary, and Belgium with "mistakes".

Lewis of course hit Kimi at Canada 2008, and people love to criticize him for going too deep into turn 1 at Japan, but outside of that I'm struggling to recall any other egregious errors.

And the notion that Vettel has "mentally bested Hamilton or Alonso" is beyond ridiculous. When you start from the front in the best car, and have good reliability, it's no surprise that he's built a big lead, and it has nothing to do with mind games.

If you put Fernando or Lewis in that car, I have no doubt that the scenario would be playing out much the same.

I agree in total with your whole post, and all the points that you have made.....well said.

I can also think of an egregious act that was committed by the stewards against Lewis in 2008, which occurred at....Spa.

 

[Bill Boddy]

....
Suffice to say, I won't be responding any further to you Ray, I find your posting style extremely aggressive and confrontational.

I did wonder why you put so much effort into garnering extra members from 606 when it was known that it was to close down. It was known as a WUM site with some aggressive members. Many of them used personal insults if another poster disagreed with them.

By the way, have you ever tried mud-wrestling with an eel before now?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

I don't think that's true somehow, I also think its irrelevant in view of the fact that in 2008 Lewis was a second year rookie and in 2010 Seb was a veteran of how many years.

CFS, I only mentioned those years because it was each's WDC season following finishing 2nd in WDC the previous year and them being about a similar age.

Anyway, Hamilton - in 2008 - made mistakes in Bahrain, Monaco, Montreal and Japan, not counting the dubious rules error in Belgium. Vettel - in 2010 - made mistakes in Turkey, Silverstone and Belgium, not counting the Behind-the-SC rules error in Hungary. Vettel had a lot of points lost to mechanical issues in 2010...moreso than what Hamilton had to endure in 2008. Anyway, it's a Vettel thread...and that's part of why we're discussing this. Cheers.

Many of them used personal insults if another poster disagreed with them.

I don't see any personal insults on this site. I could be wrong...but, personally speaking, I never insulted anyone on 606 then and I certainly have no interest in doing so now.

 

[Brogan]

For the record, I wasn't suggesting Ray was insulting anyone, because he wasn't, I personally just don't like that style of debate, so I was just making it clear that I won't get involved in it in future.

If we could get back to the thread subject now that everyone's had their say, that would be great.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Brogan, thanks and I agree! I will modify my posts accordingly!

So...

I would like to see your evidence showing that Alonso is losing his cool...ln Montreal Alonso did not crash out due to any mistake of his own.

No. He had a tangle with the eventual race winner. They went by me at the point where the pit exit 'lane' joins the circuit and - to me - it looked like a situation where someone wasn't going to make it. That was my opinion at the track as it was happening.

Further, Alonso found himself down there (position wise) because he went in for Inters when the rain got heavier. I don't know why he did that because, from where I was situated, it looked like the rain was going to come heavier and the skies were getting darker. (I wrote this in my Canadian GP thread.) That was an error that Massa didn't make.

So, why did Alonso go in? Probably because he was forced by Vettel into going an alternative route. Vettel was clearing off at will. Alonso needed to eat into Vettel's points lead at this race otherwise the points gap would have grown even further. So, basically, Vettel made Alonso go an alternative route...the young German made Alonso take a risk that did not pay...a risk that cost him position.

That is my opinion. You certainly need not share it...but that is my view. Cheers, Bill.

 

[Jru]

Unfortunately judging Vettel at this point in his career is a bit of a paradox.
He is young and not been in the sport long, but is incredibly successful. This would indicate that he is very good.
Unfortunately he is very successful but only young and has not been in the sport long so we cannot be sure that the success is due to his input.

It is clear to see that he is a very good driver, I would not question that. Also despite his finger waving antics, that give every McLaren fan or Ferrari fan a reason to shake their fists and say 'damn you Vettel, we'll get you next time!' (or something), he seems to have attracted many fans and is a reasonably down to earth guy with a (reported) sense of humour. (Though I hated his cheesy one liners at the start of the season after Quali/the race)

One thing that has struck me is when someone pointed out how Vettel has almost always been leading the way and we have seen his challengers having to chase. In the cases of Vettel and Hamilton this perfectly fits the on track character that has developed around them. I would love to see both drivers with these roles reversed, because I think that truly putting a driver out of their comfort zone, to see if they can cope with all conditions is the way to find out if they are great or just very good *.

*I don't leave out Alonso from this comparison due to a lack of appreciation of his talent. I am just contrasting two drivers and the perceptions around them as a way to analyse the premature analysis of Sebastian Vettel. (So that means its on topic right?!)

 

[Lewywo4]

With respect to Vettel/Hungary 2010, it wasn't too dissimilar to Hamilton/Spa 2008 in that both were, sadly and unfortunately, rules errors. One a SC rules error when Vettel's radio wasn't working, the other a "gaining an advantage"-type rules error. Both unfortunate. Both costing wins.

There isn't any comparison imo that can be made between Vettel at Hunary in 2010, and Spa with Hamilton in 2008. Hamilton won the race, and later had his win taken away. Sebastian looked as if he was on his way to victory, and even if he hadn't made a mistake behind the safety car, there isn't anyway to determine how that race would have ended.

 

[riskitall]

True. Webber, however, was a 'qualifying specialist' who had the measure of Rosberg and Coulthard mostly (which may not being saying much in the end (possibly)).

Further, Vettel made less mistakes in 2010 than Hamilton made in 2008 and he made no more mistakes (and possibly even less so) then Alonso/Hamilton made in 2010. And...you can see that he's progressed even further this season in the 'driver error' department in relation to, say, Hamilton and Alonso. For all Hamilton's pace, he certainly hasn't gotten the most out of that McLaren so far this year and it probably goes to the 'mental approach' issue, something Vettel's pat down hard this year.

If there's one think I feel strongly about - and it's only my own opinion - is that Vettel's blinding speed has made Hamilton, and possibly Alonso, lose his cool.

but its easier not to make mistakes when you dont have to push hard to try and overtake to win races.if lewis lead races from the start,he wouldnt have made the mistakes he's made this season.that has to be taken into consideration.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I like Vettel as a driver

However I always suspected that his recent flawless reputation was mostly the car advantage plus some type on finite special boost system. I suspected we would have to wait till he got some pressure to see how good he really is.

The first real pressure (maybe boost system doesnt work so well in the rain) , from Button and what happens?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

There isn't any comparison imo that can be made between Vettel at Hunary in 2010, and Spa with Hamilton in 2008. Hamilton won the race, and later had his win taken away. Sebastian looked as if he was on his way to victory, and even if he hadn't made a mistake behind the safety car, there isn't anyway to determine how that race would have ended.

I totally see your point - and even sympathise for Lewis over Spa '08 - but the only reason I mentioned this is because I was responding to Keke The King's original response to me ... when he mentioned Vettel's mistakes. Keke scolded me (in a loving manner, i'm sure ) saying Hamilton made less mistakes in '08 than Vettel in '10...and Keke listed 4 2010 races for Vettel (including the Hungary rules infringement race) and only 2 2008 races for Hamilton. I then later came back and listed 2 other 2008 races by Hamilton, not including the rules infringement race at Spa. Cheers.

 

[riskitall]

I totally see your point - and even sympathise for Lewis over Spa '08 - but the reason I mentioned this is because I was responding to Keke The King's original response to me ... when he mentioned Vettel's mistakes. Keke scolded me (in a loving manner, i'm sure ) saying Hamilton made less mistakes in '08 than Vettel in '10...and listed 4 races for Vettel and 2 for Hamilton. I then later came back and listed 2 others by Hamilton, not including the rules infringement at Spa. Cheers.

you have to look at the bigger picture when it comes to mistakes.where was the driver at the time he made the mistake?.was he on pole at the start of the race?.were all the incidents the drivers fault.?how many other cars/drivers was he competing against at the time?how dominant was the drivers car?
vettel was under real pressure for the first time in canada,and made a mistake at a vital time.he's lucky he didnt end up in a barrier or wall.in the other race when lewis was right behind him he wasnt under so much pressure because he had better acceleration at the right times,so lewis wasnt able to quite get close enough.and in monaco the tyre change came at just the right time for him.plus the fact its a narrow track helped him massively.so canada was the only race where he was under real pressure and he cracked,so we'll see what he does in the remaining races if he has to start pushing his car to its limits all the time to try and win.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

you have to look at the bigger picture when it comes to mistakes.....

True. Other factors would come into play...

One would be reliability and points lost as a result of reliability and how much pressure a driver puts himself under to make those points back. Vettel, in 2010, had a lot of points to make back because of poor reliability in relation to Hamilton in 2008. The two years of comparison by me in this thread.

Another would be teammate and teammate help and resource and focus dilution. In 2010, Vettel got no help from Webber who was also fighting for the WDC. [Indeed one of the mistakes mentioned was Turkey where Webber moved left to give his teammate no room. Vettel was radioed that Philbeam would instruct Webber to not lean heavily...but that message never made it]. Compare that to Germany in 2008 with Kovalainen letting Lewis easily passed. Kovalainen wasn't a factor in 2008 and McLaren focused on Hamilton fully, as they should have done.

Everything adds up.

 

[Brogan]

[Indeed one of the mistakes mentioned was Turkey where Webber moved left to give his teammate no room. Vettel was radioed that Philbeam would instruct Webber to not lean heavily...but that message never made it].

I said I wouldn't respond again but this is so far wrong it needs to be corrected.

Webber didn't deviate from his line even one centimetre.
It was Vettel who moved right into Webber.

The video is all the proof that's needed - the distance from Vettel's wheels to the white line before and after the accident show just how much he moved right.

Now I really am done

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Webber didn't deviate from his line even one centimetre...it was Vettel who moved right into Webber....The video is all the proof that's needed ...Now I really am done

Hehe. Firstly, this isn't the only video! There are other video edits (from Webber's camera) that show him looking in his left mirror...moving his steering wheel to the left...by more than one centimere! Before Vettel moved right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXhGymnqfDw&NR=1

Secondly, re your video edit, Brogan : Between 1:09 and 1:14 you can see Vettel being forced onto the while line. Before Vettel moved right.

Lastly, I have never driven that circuit...but if you have footage of the normal line of other drivers - or even if you've played F1 2010 on PS3 - Webber's line is the line of a guy leaning on someone going down his inside...it's not the line of a teammate taking the normal line and giving his teammate some or "reasonable" room into the next left (-right-left sequence).

I prefaced my post by saying that Vettel would be under the impression that Philbeam would relay Webber a message not to lean on him (given how fast Hamilton was closing on them both.)

Sure, Vettel made a mistake...but Webber leant on him too. In all good conscience, that wasn't all 100 % Vettel. Webber was quite naughty. In addition, Philbeam - for whatever reason - didn't relay the radio instruction.

 

[Hamberg]

Ray, Webber

Hehe. Firstly, this isn't the only video! There are other video edits (from Webber's camera) that show him looking in his left mirror...moving his steering wheel to the left...by more than one centimere! Before Vettel moved right.

Go on then, not seen those before