Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Hamberg]

Keke, there were a couple of errors from Lewis in the earlier races...one being not getting the start right and losing lots of positions. I can dig it up if you'd like.

Don't forget to add all of Sebastian's last year then when he screwed up the start of his races because he was too busy concentrating on closing off the guy in second.

 

[Sarinaide]

I'd have to go back and check but I don't think Alonso managed it when the Renault was the clear car out the front.

Think we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I just think Vettel is awesome when its comes to qualifying. Think he has the perfect mindset. I'm sure there must be a couple of occasions but I don't remember him ever stuffing something up in quali.

*EDIT* - just want to clarify all I'm saying is that Vettel is better at quali overall than Lewis and Fernando - when it comes to seperating the 3 as 'who is the best driver' I wouldn't like to venture a guess

would you say that in 2005/2006 the gap between Renault, Ferrari, BMW and Mercedes McLaren wasn't as much....and also factoring in that one of the contenders was a one "michael schumacher" in his prime.

 

[RasputinLives]

Maybe Sarinaide. I'd have to go back and watch my review DVDs to remind myself exactly.

Vettel just has an air of invincibility about him in Quali. Lewis and Fernando can be amazingly quick but sometimes in quali I just feel like we're waiting for something to go wrong. Don't get that feeling with Seb.

 

[Sarinaide]

Maybe Sarinaide. I'd have to go back and watch my review DVDs to remind myself exactly.

Vettel just has an air of invincibility about him in Quali. Lewis and Fernando can be amazingly quick but sometimes in quali I just feel like we're waiting for something to go wrong. Don't get that feeling with Seb.

I think for the others Qualie is about how close to p1 you can get as it is seen that Vettel is not always quick in the race, and he is a bit of a doser of late of the mark, the only way for the others to win is to do it on the track.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Don't forget to add all of Sebastian's last year then when he screwed up the start of his races because he was too busy concentrating on closing off the guy in second.

Sure. Vettel had errors last year. Hamilton's had his share...in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011. They all make mistakes. Even the great ones. Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher. All of them did.

Both Vettel and Hamilton are great drivers. No question.

 

[Slyboogy]

I am starting to see a trend here...but shall I mention it? Don't think I should or fireworks will start...

Vettel is a worthy champion, yes he has a good car, but it isn't as fast as most of you make it out to be, it may have an advantage in qualifying, however the race is a different matter, as for his mistakes? He makes them the same way the other top drivers though, they maybe silly but I have seen Alonso and Hamilton make just as many silly mistakes in a season,

Another thing which tends to be annoying is, the same people last year started saying "Webber is a great driver, same class as Button" now all of a sudden he's on the latter stage of his career and lost some of his ability....

I for one do think Vettel is a one lap specialist, there have been many occasions where he has been under a lot of pressure, China 2009 in qualifying just shows the guys class to get one amazing lap in....

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

As I was saying, both Vettel and Hamilton are great drivers. Aces without a doubt. Vettel, however, seems to have really gelled with RB7 (moreso than Webber at least) whereas Hamilton has had some poor meetings (Malaysia, Monaco, Montreal) and certainly hasn't gotten as much out of MP4-26 as Button.

Having said that, we're finding out that Button might be 'better' than Webber. If 2009 didn't tell us that, then the most recent Grand Prix of 2011 likely did.

 

[Brogan]

and certainly hasn't gotten as much out of MP4-26 than what Button has.

Until last weekend, Hamilton had 1 win and 2 second places, compared to Button's 1 second place and 2 thirds.
He also hasn't been behind Button since Malaysia.
He's also leading 5:2 on qualifying.

The facts don't really line up with your opinion.

 

[Slyboogy]

Think Ray meant Button is making most of his chances recently....

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Vettel is a worthy champion, yes he has a good car, but it isn't as fast as most of you make it out to be, it may have an advantage in qualifying, however the race is a different matter, as for his mistakes? He makes them the same way the other top drivers though, they maybe silly but I have seen Alonso and Hamilton make just as many silly mistakes in a season...

I think Hamilton has been psyched out by Vettel's blazing qualifying performances and relative consistency, especially his (Vettel's) ability to bring home big points - inspite of any errors - time and again, dating back to the 23 year old's low point in the Summer of 2010.

 

[Sarinaide]

I have seen Alonso and Hamilton make just as many silly mistakes in a season

Yip, Mr Alonso was naughty enough to wreck his car in free practice 3.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Until last weekend, Hamilton had 1 win and 2 second places, compared to Button's 1 second place and 2 thirds.
He also hasn't been behind Button since Malaysia.
He's also leading 5:2 on qualifying.

The facts don't really line up with your opinion.

I don't understand. I meant in terms of the WDC points table specifically and, more importantly, in relation to my and everyone's expectations. "The facts" are in the WDC Points Table right now.

Frankly, I rate Hamilton at a higher level than Button and, as a result, Hamilton should be closer to Vettel in the WDC than Button is. Hamilton should have gotten more out of the Monaco and Montreal weekends than Button. You disagree with this opinion?

 

[Slyboogy]

I think Hamilton has been psyched out by Vettel's blazing qualifying performances and relative consistency, especially his (Vettel's) ability to bring home big points - inspite of any errors - time and again, dating back to the 23 year old's low point in the Summer of 2010.

You know what Ray, I agree. I actually think Hamilton is getting frustrated by Vettel, just his attitude towards aswell, especially after the Spanish GP. I don't know what's happened to Hamilton since the back end of 2010, but I think his mental approach has been wrong, compare it to Vettel who sorted it out and went on to win the 2010 title.

Alonso is just frustrated overall since 2007 of not having a proper car.

 

[RasputinLives]

I'm not sure I agree that Vettel has psyched Hamilton out. Not sure thats possible with Lewis. I think Lewis is frustrated because he doesn't seem to be able to get his Mclaren up there to give him a chance to compete with Vettel on a consistant basis. I think he thought after China he was about to get on top of him and when its not happened he's just got himself frustrated.

 

[Slyboogy]

Yip, Mr Alonso was naughty enough to wreck his car in free practice 3.

I don't know whether that's sarcasm or not, but in 2010 he did make several mistakes, very unlike Alonso who seems to be "Mr. Reliable" his first half of the season was full of mistakes, but his second half made up for it...but the fact is, he made mistakes like Vettel, like Hamilton, like all drivers.

 

[RevMaxPower]

You know what Ray, I agree. I actually think Hamilton is getting frustrated by Vettel, just his attitude towards aswell, especially after the Spanish GP. I don't know what's happened to Hamilton since the back end of 2010, but I think his mental approach has been wrong, compare it to Vettel who sorted it out and went on to win the 2010 title.

Alonso is just frustrated overall since 2007 of not having a proper car.

Poor babies... Who said life was fair. Come on Lewis and Fernando, you're both capable of beating the sprog - you know you can do it... Go for it!

 

[Sarinaide]

I don't know whether that's sarcasm or not, but in 2010 he did make several mistakes, very unlike Alonso who seems to be "Mr. Reliable" his first half of the season was full of mistakes, but his second half made up for it...but the fact is, he made mistakes like Vettel, like Hamilton, like all drivers.

No I meant last year he put the car in the wall in a very dominant position, and yes he has made his fair share of foul ups......after all he is human.

 

[Brogan]

Hamilton should be closer to Vettel in the WDC than Button is.

He was until last weekend and if not for some very fortuitous good luck for Button relating to two collisions, he still would be.
You've taken a snapshot of the standings the one time Button has been ahead in the last 5 races and used it to justify your opinion.

Suffice to say, I won't be responding any further to you Ray, I find your posting style extremely aggressive and confrontational.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Think Ray meant Button is making most of his chances recently....

Yes. That's what I meant. Thanks!

 

[Sarinaide]

I think that back on Vettel he has shown a very cool head and perhaps bar Montreal which could happen to any pace car in wet conditions, he has handled the season beautifully. I rate him as certainly a great prospect if not already a great driver.