Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Hamberg]

Don't hold your breath,just thought your comparison reeked a bit

I got that

 

[Foaad]

Just saw the following article, can anyone paste the article in full since it requires subscription

Deconstructing Sebastian Vettel

How does Sebastian Vettel fare against Formula 1's greatest stars from the past? It may be too early to know, but Edd Straw explains why the German is the greatest 23-year-old that the sport has ever seen

Sebastian Vettel's 2011 season has been truly astonishing, with his five wins from seven races adding up to a monstrous 60-point championship lead over Jenson Button. That's a whopping 83 points more than the German had at the same point last year. And had the Chinese and Canadian Grands Prix been respectively four and one lap shorter, he would have a 100 per cent record and a share in Michael Schumacher and Alberto Ascari's record for consecutive world championship race wins.
He's already a world champion and has one outstretched fingertip in contact with a second drivers' crown. To that must be added the caveat that with 11 races to go a hell of a lot can, and will, happen but it has still been an impressive campaign.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/3609/deconstructing-sebastian-vettel/

 

[Brogan]

can anyone paste the article in full since it requires subscription

That isn't permitted.

 

[Pyrope]

That isn't permitted.

Well said. Besides, in F1 we are blessed with some very fine writers and some truly superb specialist journalists. These guys and gals need to earn a crust so I have no problem with paying them for what they bring to my life. Raw news is available everywhere for free, but if someone has spent a day or two putting together a more thoughtful, in-depth article then they fully deserve to be paid for it.

 

[KekeTheKing]

The guy is an extremely fast driver, defending World Champ, and seated in the best car on the grid. What more can be said?

The pity is that we only have Webber as a true comparison.

 

[Hamberg]

I can see it as I pay the subscription, you could always try that?

 

[Brogan]

This is one of those "perfect storm" moments.

One of the top 5 (3?) drivers on the grid in arguably the best car with some innovative design features such as a flexing front wing and the off throttle EBD, a team mate who is in the latter stage of his career, and the other top teams and drivers not quite managing to get it together or match them on overall performance.

It doesn't happen very often as it requires too many variables.
I expect it to continue for some time, even after the EBD ban comes into force at Silverstone.

I guess for the other teams and drivers, 2012 can't come soon enough, as the rule changes will once again change the game.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

...The pity is that we only have Webber as a true comparison.

True. Webber, however, was a 'qualifying specialist' who had the measure of Rosberg and Coulthard mostly (which may not being saying much in the end (possibly)).

Further, Vettel made less mistakes in 2010 than Hamilton made in 2008 and he made no more mistakes (and possibly even less so) then Alonso/Hamilton made in 2010. And...you can see that he's progressed even further this season in the 'driver error' department in relation to, say, Hamilton and Alonso. For all Hamilton's pace, he certainly hasn't gotten the most out of that McLaren so far this year and it probably goes to the 'mental approach' issue, something Vettel's pat down hard this year.

If there's one think I feel strongly about - and it's only my own opinion - is that Vettel's blinding speed has made Hamilton, and possibly Alonso, lose his cool.

 

[Pyrope]

Brogan and Ray both make some very interesting points. The last time I remember such a total alignment of the stars was 1992. Only Senna a real threat, team mate on the wane, and the McLaren a much more inferior car to the all singing, all dancing FW14B.

Ray's point about the psychology is very interesting... there may well be something in that.

 

[RasputinLives]

If there's one think I feel strongly about - and it's only my own opinion - is that Vettel's blinding speed has made Hamilton, and possibly Alonso, lose his cool.

For once Ray I strongly agree with you. I think Lewis and Fernadno were so busy concentrating on beating each other in the last couple of season that they didn't see the emergence of Vettel coming and now are at a loss as to what to do about it. I think after 2007 with all the hype they both believed they were going to be the 2 men at the top of the sport. I think Fernando honestly believed as soon as he got in that Ferrari he'd be back to winning titles which is why we saw him so angry last year and I think its just dawned on Lewis that Vettel could quite easily take back to back titles something he's failed to do.

Its not just his speed thats flumaxed them but his consistancy. He has an ability in quali that neither of them have.

 

[cider_and_toast]

I also agree with Bro. I'm not sure where this thread is going. For me, it was always clear this season that Vettel would be the one to beat. Having made heavy work of taking the title last year he was always going to be on winning form this year with a renewed level of confidence and self belief. Not sure what else there is to say really.

 

[Brogan]

He has an ability in quali that neither of them have.

I don't want to turn this into a who is better thread, but I would disagree with that.
How many times in previous seasons did we see Hamilton grab pole on his last flying lap, in much the same way Vettel is doing now?

Given the car, I have no doubt that Hamilton (and Alonso) could match Vettel in qualifying, and the race.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

The last time I remember such a total alignment of the stars was 1992. Only Senna a real threat, team mate on the wane, and the McLaren a much more inferior car to the all singing, all dancing FW14B.

Pyrope, I think there's just one difference. Mansell "came out of retirement" and re-signed for Williams with the caveat that he be undisputed contractual Number 1. Patrese, not too dissimilar in age, was a Number 2, frankly...and it was reflected in the equipment differential from time to time. I think Webber's getting equal equipment to Vettel except he's encountered more mechanical problems this year when the opposite was true last year.

 

[KekeTheKing]

Vettel made less mistakes in 2010 than Hamilton made in 2008

Absolute nonsense!

In 2010 Vettel threw away clutches of points at Turkey, GB, Hungary, and Belgium with "mistakes".

Lewis of course hit Kimi at Canada 2008, and people love to criticize him for going too deep into turn 1 at Japan, but outside of that I'm struggling to recall any other egregious errors.

And the notion that Vettel has "mentally bested Hamilton or Alonso" is beyond ridiculous. When you start from the front in the best car, and have good reliability, it's no surprise that he's built a big lead, and it has nothing to do with mind games.

If you put Fernando or Lewis in that car, I have no doubt that the scenario would be playing out much the same.

 

[RasputinLives]

Given the car, I have no doubt that Hamilton (and Alonso) could match Vettel in qualifying, and the race.

I think not only can they match him they can beat him - but not consistantly. Seb has been on the front row for the last 11 Grand Prixs and I don't think thats something Lewis and Alonso could match

but then I guess we'll see with Lewis in that Redbull next year (maybe, possibley)

 

[Sarinaide]

I have reached the point where deciding who is who and who is the greatest becomes a mudslinging event so what I will say is, granted that Vettel, like Schumacher and others prior has the best car, what really makes a good driver is still delivering the knock out performances with that good car.

For this I reject the assumption that just because Vettel wins time and time again that say Hamilton and Alonso will necessarily do the same in the same car. I would say you have the elite drivers in F1 which I think the three aforementioned men are.......I still think that Vettel despite the annoyance and the one finger salute that makes me blow a gasket, he is turning and maturing into a very scary driver, particularly if RBR stay dominant.

 

[Brogan]

Seb has been on the front row for the last 11 Grand Prixs and I don't think thats something Lewis and Alonso could match

In a car with a clear half second advantage?
Easily.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Absolute nonsense!...In 2010 Vettel threw away clutches of points at Turkey, GB, Hungary, and Belgium with "mistakes"...Lewis of course hit Kimi at Canada 2008, and people love to criticize him for going too deep into turn 1 at Japan, but outside of that I'm struggling to recall any other egregious errors

Keke, there were a couple of errors from Lewis in the earlier races...one being Bahrain where he didn't get the start right, lost about 6 positions. He then hit Alonso, breaking his McLaren's front wing. Lewis lost a fair amount of points that race and took responsibility for his Lap 1 error.

Another was when he puntured his tyre after clouting the barriers at Tabac at Monaco in the wet. It cost him positions. People forget that because he was close to the pits and McLaren sent him out on dries - ultimately giving him track position - to the end of the race.

With respect to Vettel/Hungary 2010, it wasn't too dissimilar to Hamilton/Spa 2008 in that both were, sadly and unfortunately, rules errors. One a SC rules error when Vettel's radio wasn't working, the other a "gaining an advantage"-type rules error. Both unfortunate. Both costing wins.

Anyway, I have no desire of arguing with you, Keke. I know you're a Hamilton man these days...so it wouldn't benifit me to point out the other Lewis errors of 2008.

 

[Sarinaide]

I did make the point before that one tell tell sign of greatness to me is the ratio of pole positions to wins, Michael Schumacher has a stand out record of 30 odd more GP wins than Poles while Senna rather the other way had more Poles than GP wins.

Of the current crop Lewis and Vettel (more so) have so many poles but lesser number of wins, Alonso has more wins than Poles.

I do stand corrected on this though.

 

[RasputinLives]

I'd have to go back and check but I don't think Alonso managed it when the Renault was the clear car out the front.

Think we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I just think Vettel is awesome when its comes to qualifying. Think he has the perfect mindset. I'm sure there must be a couple of occasions but I don't remember him ever stuffing something up in quali.

*EDIT* - just want to clarify all I'm saying is that Vettel is better at quali overall than Lewis and Fernando - when it comes to seperating the 3 as 'who is the best driver' I wouldn't like to venture a guess