Road car manufacturers in F1 who didn't use their own engine

[MCLS]

FYI, I read in "another place" that Toyota were recruiting new engineering staff. I don't know how true this is but it may give credence to the idea that this is a backdoor route for Toyota to get back into F1. A Toyota Cosworth anyone? How many other manufacturers have used someone elses engine? The only one I can think of is the Matra Cosworth from the 60's.

Didnt Brawn do that last year with a Mercedes engine because the BGP-001 (or indeed the RA-109) was designed for the Honda engine?

 

[Andrea_Moda_Rules]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

Didnt Brawn do that last year with a Mercedes engine because the BGP-001 (or indeed the RA-109) was designed for the Honda engine?

Theoretically I suppose although again i suppose the Honda became a brawn then it got brought out. so technically didn't count.

Although i think at one point, early on in F1 history there was a Jaguar-ferrari, Im sure somebody will correct me if im wrong.

I don't know what to make of these factory rumors, seems like idol gossip on a slow news day to me.

The only thing i can think of is that perhaps with Toyota reputation damaged with the Brake problem was it? They might be looking into taking advantage of HRT's problems and perhaps looking at luring them in so Toyota can buy there entry.

 

[Bullfrog]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

I think he meant manufacturer as in car manufacturer.

 

[Brogan]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

How many other manufacturers have used someone elses engine? The only one I can think of is the Matra Cosworth from the 60's.

I get the following:


I've included the Saubers as the first Sauber in 1993 was Sauber engine and chassis.
The same applies to Veritas and Zakspeed.
Although I suspect in all cases the engines were re-badged?

 

[slickskid]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

I've included the Saubers as the first Sauber in 1993 was Sauber engine and chassis.
The same applies to Veritas and Zakspeed.
Although I suspect in all cases the engines were re-badged?

From what i can tell the Sauber's were badged Mercedes engines probably built by Ilmor. Sauber had heavy funding from Mercedes and i believe the team was initially planning to come back (enter) as Mercedes but they (the board) decided against it as there was a bit of a crisis going on in Germany following reunification.
it all makes sense when you look at the slogan on side of the C12 entered in 93 which read "Concept by Mercedes Benz" & the following years C13 just read "Mercedes Benz" with an official Mercedes engine designation.

Veritas is a different kettle of fish all together. I can't find any record of them having entered as a team in any F1 Championship events but that doesn't mean to say they had in non-championship events or other formulas however, it is clear that they provided a full package as a contructor to individual drivers who then entered as themselves. It seems there were two basic types of cars (with variations) which were the Meteor and the RS with the later being a 2 seater that could be run in sports cars and F2. It's more than likely that the engines in both these were BMW's.

Zakspeed could well be a genuine case as i believe they did start out making thier own chassis and turbo engine before later switching to the Yamaha engine.

The one that i can think of that isn't on that list that will shock some and have others falling off their seats laughing in a moment of wumness involves that famous Italian red team, not only did they use anothers engine but chassis as well. In the mid 50's Lancia were struggling heavily and sold out to Fiat, in turn Fiat then promptly gave to Ferrari the Lancia D50 racing cars that went on to become during the 56 & 57 season's the Ferrari D50 (or Ferrari-Lancia D50) a further development of this being the 801 and also during 56 the Lancia engine may have also found its way into the 555.
All this would have been tinkered with and modified of course but at heart still a Lancia... i wonder if they had rusting problems back then

And it's drifted again

 

[FB]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

I did mean road car manufacturers using someone else engine which, I suppose, could now include Mclaren although they didn't start as a road car manufacturer. This could also include Ligier as they make road cars, although I'm not sure if this is anything to do with Guy's team.

 

[Brogan]

Re: HRT spotted factory shopping in Cologne

I did mean road car manufacturers using someone else engine

So basically I wasted an hour then compiling that table

Thanks for the info' though slick, very interesting.
So perhaps it wasn't wasted effort after all

 

[cider_and_toast]

We must then include Team Lotus if we are talking about Road Car manufacturers who used some one else's engine.

 

[siffert_fan]

Wouldn't the Jaguar-Cosworth fall into this category?

 

[Brogan]

I considered Lotus but no-one ever classes them as a road car manufacturer using other engines, although I don't see why not

Jaguar-Cosworth is in the table siffert_fan

 

[FB]

I'm sure SOMEONE will know but did Lotus start as a car maker or as a racing team? As for Jaguar, as both Jag and Cosworth were part of Ford at that time (weren't they?) it's a bit of a difficult one. I suppose as Jaguar were the entrant it counts but, effectively, Ford were using the Jag name for an F1 team.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Technically they started as a racing team. The first Chapman built car was a converted Austin 7 used for mud plugging. This is now retrospectively regarded as the Mk 1. After building some bespoke racing cars which were built for Chapman and some of his friends (Mike Costin, Graham Hill and Hazel Chapman for example) to race the first true "Lotus Car" was the Mk 6 which was builtfor the racing market and sold in kit form. The Mk 7 (Now better known as the Lotus Seven or these days the Caterham Seven) was the first mass sold Lotus that was bought for both road and track use.

Lotus's first proper sports car was the Type 8 which spawed the Type 9 and Type 11. From this grew the Lotus Elite which was their first proper road car and launched at the London Motor show in 1957.

Lotus's first bespoke designed engine was the type 904 which was based on a Vauxhall block and used in the Europa race car and their First in house road going engine was the type 907 which was used initially in the Jenson-Healey and then later in the Esprit, Elite and Eclat.

 

[siffert_fan]

I found the list very interesting, but would appreciate clairification of one item. I thought that Ken Tyrrell was the entrant for the Matra-Cosworths, at least in 1968 and 1969. I seem to rememeber that Matra ran their own v-12 in 1968.

 

[slickskid]

I found the list very interesting, but would appreciate clairification of one item. I thought that Ken Tyrrell was the entrant for the Matra-Cosworths, at least in 1968 and 1969. I seem to rememeber that Matra ran their own v-12 in 1968.

That's absolutely true however, whilst Tyrrell did have a Matra chassis(s) built to house the Cosworth engine the team actually run in the name of Matra International in 68 & 69 with Matra themselves running as Matra Sport in 68 with their own engine. Matra sport did not run in 69 instead concentrating on the International teams efforts, then in 1970 Matra sport resummed as Matra Simca and Tyrrell went their own way racing as Tyrrell Racing Organisation with their own chassis.

 

[siffert_fan]

slickskid,

Thanks for the information. That was all news to me, and I attended several races in both 1968 and 1969!

 

[Brogan]

Thanks for the clarification slick!
For one awful moment there I thought we had incorrect data in the database

With regards to Lotus then, do we consider them to be a unique case as although they are a manufacturer now, they weren't when they started.
Even so, they were still using other manufacturer's engines after they had become a manufacturer in their own right

 

[Bullfrog]

Aren't they similar to Ferrari in that both teams started as a racing team before expanding into road car production later? We consider Ferrari to be a car manufacturer so really we should treat Lotus in the same way.

 

[Muddytalker]

I suspect I may be wrong as my Lotus history (particularly Lotus Cars' history) is vague, but isn't a key difference that Ferrari manufacture their own engines, but Lotus have often imported engines, or had engines designed & built for them? With this in mind, I think that there are few 'road car manufacturers that also build their own engines' that have used an outsourced engine, in F1, whch may have been what FB was originally getting at.

 

[Bullfrog]

That's a good point actually, I didn't consider that. Looks like they are more of a special case.

 

[slickskid]

Wouldn't the Jaguar-Cosworth fall into this category?

Another interesting one which looks like it should be here (and is as Brogan pointed out) but it worth remembering that at the time of the teams existance Jaguar were actually owned by Ford and it was the detroit giants decision to showcase the Jaguar brand having bought the team from Stewart.