Mercedes and Ferrari in 'secret' Pirelli tyre tests

I wonder what you would be saying if it were Red Bull instead of Merc under the spotlight....

Hard to say, as the situations are completely incongruous. One team has dominated the sport for longer than the other one has even been a Constructor. Like it or not, this is a pertinent aspect of the story.

As for your "secret" hypothesis...Just because something is not public knowledge does not make it "secret". Our own Jen seems to know things that are not in the public domain, but are most certainly not "secrets".
 
Came across this little nugget when looking for something completely different.

About the possibility of testing,
Force India's Bob Fernley said the issue came up in a FOTA meeting

Red Bull and Ferrari are not members of FOTA of course, which is why they had to be independently consulted about the test possibilities and their participation.

Although there are probably several layers of semantics here, I would imagine that Mercedes and Pirelli are confident that they fulfilled the requirement that all teams be briefed about the testing policies within the agreement held between the tire manufacturer and the FIA.
 
Came across this little nugget when looking for something completely different.
Although there are probably several layers of semantics here, I would imagine that Mercedes and Pirelli are confident that they fulfilled the requirement that all teams be briefed about the testing policies within the agreement held between the tire manufacturer and the FIA.

:thumbsup:

[consulting all teams nothing to do with Mercedes]
 
Mephistopheles It beggars belief that an F1 test could happen straight after a race at Barcelona in secret. F1 cars are bloody loud for one thing!

KekeTheKing And, if my memory serves me correctly, no team other than Red Bull or Ferrari, i.e. no FOTA team, has publicly criticised the test or stated it shouldn't have happened. Maybe that suggests something was agreed upon in that meeting, or maybe Ferrari and Red Bull are just the most vocal (as always).
 
I don't think I'm alone in thinking the FIA make deliberately obscure rules.
I mean who on earth in normal life would tell the teams they cannot use the 2013 car and the tyre supplier they can? It's nonsensical & designed to cause confusion.
What would happen if Pirelli do pull out of supplying tyres next year? Surely it's a bit late for another supplier to start work on the 2014 tyres, not as if they can nip down to Kwik-Fit (other tyre suppliers available).
 
I have been watching this story with some interest and have come to the conclusion that the whole thing is a complete mess and I don't think anyone is guilty, but then by the same thought they are all guilty. I know that sounds confusing but the issue here is the way the rules and other agreements are drawn up and the fact that they are not always cross referenced.

The issue is that there is a huge team of people that get involved in the rules involving everyone from the teams, the FIA, FoM, the commercial sponsors and the bloke they pulled in off the street with the permanent drunken stare and the flea bitten dog. These rules were agreed and put into writing and everyone is happy. But, and this is a BIG but, there is a team that deals with the commercial agreements that the FIA have in place. This includes the way things are handled with the tyre suppliers, FoM, sponsorship agreements, and just about anything that means money changes hands. This team is not necessarily the same team who get involved in writing the rules, and sometimes (ok, probably most of the time) these commercial agreements are not covered by the rules and in this case fly directly in the face of the rules.

The issue is that Pirelli and Mercedes have commercial agreements in place, with the FIA and both indirectly or directly with each other. These agreements state that pirelli have the right to do certain things, and I wouldn't be surprised if the teams agreements include having to support the FIA in delivering its obligations under commercial agreements. So by the terms of the contracts they all hold with each other this test is nothing but business as usual. The problem is that the rules of the sport (which are probably referenced in both the pirelli and team commercial agreement with the FIA) state that this test is so plainly against the rules a 5 year old with a set of crayons and half a brain could underline the section in the rules they have breached.

So which should take precedence over the other? Well if it was a court of law in this country or a number of others in europe as well as the US then Pirelli and Mercedes have done nothing wrong. This comes down to the principal that any ambiguity in a contract or legal document is resolved in the favour of the person who didn't draft the document, hence as the FIA is the originator of the agreements they either have to make sure they are 100% clear or people using grey areas and loop holes will have to be let off. But unfortunately this isn't a court of law just yet and the FIA does have a way of enforcing what they want how they want it so we may end up seeing everyone found guilty and being punished.

This is all of course if the statements from various parties can be proven and are above board and correct, and some people have been having a habit of trying to muddy the waters around themselves recently so I don't think any of us can be sure we have enough information to come to any conclusion, and we probably never will have as the information will be hidden from the Tribunal report so no-one will truly know what was said in that room unless they are there...
 
I'm not at all sure that Mercedes have actually confessed to breaking the regulations, as Galahad states they have. My understanding is (and I stand to be corrected) that they have claimed from the word go that it was not their test but Pirelli's, and they merely supplied the cars and drivers. That may be semantics, but if held to be true then Mercedes couldn't have broken any testing rules because they didn't conduct a test, Pirelli did.

Another thought; perhaps their use of plain, unbranded helmets was simply part of this process rather than a deliberate attempt at subterfuge. It's possible that Mercedes' thinking was along the lines of: "Its not a Mercedes test, therefore we won't use any Mercedes or its drivers' branding". It would be interesting to know if the cars and overalls etc. used for the tests were also unbranded.
 
canis Excellent analysis:thumbsup:

You're right. In a court, it's most likely that Mercedes and/or Pirelli would be found guilty. Funny thing though is that Pirelli apparantly signed a contract with the FIA which states that test are allowed, while the FIA-rules state those tests aren't allowed. Such an agreement normally would be nullified by the rules.
In the case the governing body that set up the rules, also made the agreement. So it seems as if the FIA screwed up big time.
 
I think you are all pissing in the wind - no common sense appraisal is relevant here. More than Mercedes, Ferrari, Pirelli and the FIA are involved.

So, a slap on the wrists for all known participants!
 
More than Mercedes, Ferrari, Pirelli and the FIA are involved.

I must say I'm very intrigued by your "contact's" information Jen. I eagerly await someone coming forward to clear up this quagmire.

And I'll say it again. The notion of a "secret" F1 test on mainland Europe directly following a GP is completely beyond the scope of imagination.
 
I have followed and sometimes throw in the odd comment but I must say... what is the point of all these speculations and why don't we just wait until a few more facts are known?
The outcome and its conclusions whatever they are will come soon enough.
 
I think you are all pissing in the wind - no common sense appraisal is relevant here. More than Mercedes, Ferrari, Pirelli and the FIA are involved.

So, a slap on the wrists for all known participants!


Agreed. Worse things have gone unpunished (i.e. Benetton '94)
 
There's a little conspiracy theorist lurking in my head which says that Bernie wants the show to be as good as possible, and so in secret has given the teams closest to Red Bull in performance the opportunity to secretly test and improve their performance, and therefore try and mitigate Red Bull's inevitable massive victory again this year, and hence get more viewers hooked who spend more money.. Problem is, somebody noticed.
Cynical, but not totally beyond the realms of possibilty!
 
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