Mark Webber vs Sebastian Vettel

[Mezzer]

I've personally never warmed to Webber, partly because he's one of the most difficult people to overtake (and IMO not in a good way). Vettel will be interesting to watch in a season where the car is clearly - at this point at least - far from the cream of the crop. I was pleased to see Webber take Vettel on Sunday, and have wondered on another thread whether this might be more of a gloves-off season for him as it could be his last one with RBR.

 

[Jen]

Finally, even though SV has lost the 'magic button' one lap boost given to him last year by the regulations and team, he is no worse over the race and I believe still capable of thrashing MW when he gets the hang of the new regime

To re-find the 'magic button', Vettel will have to find the 'magic' car - he may well keep looking, in the meantime Webber will do what he can with the 'non-magic' car he has, perhaps, just a thought, maybe!!

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Fully agree that Webber is too agressive sometimes. But I like that fact that he is one of the few drivers who will speak his mind a lot, his comments on Bahrain being an example of this.

One thing has started to annoy me is that people think he was close to Vettel in 2010. Yes I agree he was closer to Vettel in 2010, yet he had perfect reliability and still managed to finish behind Vettel by 14 points while Vettel lost over 60 points due to mechanical reliability issues. Webber is by no means a bad driver, I'd place him somewhere in the middle of the grid, but he isn't an 'ace'.

Vettel was good in 2010 and excellent in 2011. Yet it looks as though he positive attitude is nowhere to be found in 2012, when the chips are down that's when you see how mentally tough a driver really is, for example I rate Alonso very highly because he is constantly given a car which is unable to realistically fight for wins or a championship, yet he keeps plugging away and somehow manages to get podium finishes. Vettel is still yet to demonstrate this steely resolve in 2012, of course there is plently of time for this yet.

I still question his ability to effectivly overtake. One top-notch pass at Monza certainly helped, yet in the few situations he finds himself behind a car (Silverstone 2011, Malaysia 2012) he seems to close up but just can't get past. This cost him on Sunday, his 2 stop strategy gave him track position, yet had he been able to make progress through the traffic with a 3 stopper he wouldn't have slipped back right at the end of the race due to tyre degredation. While it is true we have seen little of Vettel's overtaking abilities I will say in his defence that he has had little opportunity to display them (ultimately a good thign for him) due to qualifying at the sharp-end of the grid for a large portion of his F1 career and when he does have the misfortune to find himself in the pack he is nearly always equipped with a car that has good overall lap time yet lacks straightline speed, meaning his car is weak on the part of the track where the overtake is most likely to happen.

 

[johnnoble1990]

For me, this is the real test of Sebastian's ability. It is a rarity that any driver will consistently be given the fastest car on the grid. In order to really be as good as some people seem to think Sebastian is, he will need to be able to consistently out perform the car when the pace isn't there. If we look at the 2 drivers many think he is trying to better, Fernando and Lewis, they have consistently shown this throughout their careers. For me, the thing that has most impressed me about Fernando is not his 2 world titles, but what he has done since in cars that have not matched his ability. The same for me goes for Lewis, when he drove the worst Mclaren in years to a 3rd, 7th, 6th and 4th at the start of 2009, and when he dragged the 2010 car to the top of the championship. That said, I think we are being too reactionary. I don't think Vettel has shown his abilities in the field this year, but he hasn't shown the opposite either. The last 2 races we've seen some small mistakes take big punishment and it will be interesting to see how he recovers from this.

As for Mark Webber, he is probably a good example of why this reactionary approach is completely wrong, and I was guilty of it like many last year. I had firmly downgraded Mark Webber in my estimations, underestimating the reasons for his struggles along the way. The technical vs natural argument is a very interesting one, set out in the first post. Mark Webber's consistency vs Vettel's early erraticness would perhaps support this. Vettel appears to be unsettled in the same way that other technical drivers, like Jenson, are when the car is not just so. While Webber is making the most of what he can. I have to say I am thrilled to see Webber back at the top of his game. It seems in many ways we are back to 2010. If Mark Webber could sort out his starts, the gap between him and Seb may yet widen. Whatever the answer, this is going to be one of the most interesting elements of 2012 we may get to see. Not bad for a number 2 driver.

 

[RasputinLives]

but please don't try to discredit my opinions by second guessing my motives or by attempting to discredit me personally.

Woah woah woah Mr Ninja. I was not trying to discredit your opinions or you personally. Take a deep breath my friend and don't take it all so personal. I was suggesting that you have formed a theory that you are eager to be proved correct and its easy to jump on facts that you think has proved it too early because you think it proves you right. For instance I'm currently eating a big humble pie served up to me by Nico Rosberg after claiming last year he would never win a Grand Prix and also Mr Bruno Senna also seems to have found the recipe for it too and is telling me he planning on baking me a great big one. I was just suggesting that 3 races in to the season might be a bit early to start claiming Seb is a 'plug in and play driver' whilst Webber is more a 'natural talent' driver.

You wrote a thread and I expressed and opinon on why you were writing it. It doesn't mean I have no respect for you and I'm insulting you. If that was the case I'd call you a poo poo head or something and I didn't!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

a bit early to start claiming Seb is a 'plug in and play driver' whilst Webber is more a 'natural talent' driver.

You have misunderstood so, to be clear, I am not suggesting that Seb is uniquely a "plug-n-play" driver. I am suggesting that all drivers are "plug-n-play". You turn up with a car, stick a driver in and then the car can go racing. Many team managers have eluded to this in the past. now if you go back and read my original point with this understanding it should make a bit more sense to you.

You wrote a thread and I expressed and opinon on why you were writing it. It doesn't mean I have no respect for you and I'm insulting you.

Firstly, what benefit is there to expressing an opinion on why you think I have written something when the why clearly points to my motivations rather than my interpretation and conclusions and supporting information.

I have not suggested that you have insulted me, either. just that you ought to direct your responses to my comments rather than a psychoanalysis of myself to determine my intentions.


Rest assured, I haven't taken any offence. I'm just getting a bit tired of being pigeon-holed and would rather let my independent comments stand on their own.

 

[RasputinLives]

As a History graduate mate I always analyse the reason for anything being written by anyone as their is not an individual in the world who has ever written anything completely subjectivly and you have to take that into account before you come to a conclusion on anything. Not something I can switch off I'm afraid. Whilst you claim your opinons are independent they are not and neither are mine. We're human beings and therefore everything we write is tinged with an opinion however hard we try to be fair and indpenedent. You wouldn't have written this article unless you thought Webber was doing better than Vettel so your opinion is already out there to see - not that I'm saying it isn't valid - so its not independent you have something you're trying to prove as has everyone else on here. All I was saying don't be so eager to prove what you've concluded is right that you run off at it too soon and end up eating my Rosberg like humble pie - I was not putting you in any Pigeon style holes merely expressing that we know where you stand on it and you may very well be correct but lets not jump to the conclusion so soon.

It would be like me writing an article about how Maldonado is obviously far superior to Senna. I could justify it with stats and I may or may not be right and I could try and be as fair as possible about it but the majority of people on here would see that its influenced by the fact I don't rate Senna as a driver and am eager to prove myself correct. The they'd tell me to wait and see.

Back to the Webber/Vettel comparision though - this weekend should be a good indication of Webber's form as Bahrain is a bit of a bogie track for him. His highest finish here is 6th and that was back in 2006 in the Williams. So if he beats Seb here then you can say he's def back to the top of his game. Having said that though Seb has never had much luck at Bahrain. He should have won in 2010 but for a car problem and was actually in with a shot of challeging Button for the lead in 09 but a badly timed pitstop by RBR meant he got stuck behind the Trulli train.

Infact Seb's second place in Bahrain 2009 is the only podium Red Bull have had at the track! Maybe a bogie track for them in general.

 

[ZakspeedYakspeed]

I was always under the impression that the double diffuser designs almost custom delivered the car set-up to Vettel, which, given the weight diff. between MW and SV (Batman vs child) and the lack of option MW had to re-allocate weight around the chassis, gave the kid the edge... ie. he could trim out the car more than MW could...

Who knows... their could be another crack in a chassis yet to be discovered...either that or Seb has just hit puberty and is having a few late nights with some lovely ladies from GQ Germany on a regular basis...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Raspy, I despair of your last post to be honest. So much contradiction that it nearly ate itself. Can we not just stick to debating the facts and our interpretations of them? This is what I always try to do and I really don't want to engage in psychoanalysis of other members, as I have said before. I don't need a lengthy explanation from you as to why you do, I would just rather you didn't do it where I am concerned. Thanks.

 

[Kewee]

I'm going to wait a few more GP's then I'll gatecrash this thread. I think some of you know whats coming.

 

[RasputinLives]

stuff about how good Ferrari are?

 

[Kewee]

Come on Rasputin, you know me better than that. Pure Red Bull I promise. I think it might have be you that chewed my head off last time I entered into the Webber/Vettel conversation. Be patient, all will be revealed. Yum, popcorn before bedtime.

 

[RasputinLives]

Well I'm on the edge of my seat. oh and I don't chew heads off just bash em together

 

[Slyboogy]

Webber's getting the job done, Vettel so far isn't.

But still Vettel is the one with the podium finish, and Webber, despite any troubles has only finished 4th three times despite having the chance to capatilise in Malaysia and China for a podium finish.

It's close between the two, but I think Vettel's been unspectacular due to various reasons, rather than Webber being astonishing.

 

[johnnoble1990]

How long before we have Seb threatening to move to Mclaren?

 

[ZakspeedYakspeed]

Webber's getting the job done, Vettel so far isn't.

But still Vettel is the one with the podium finish, and Webber, despite any troubles has only finished 4th three times despite having the chance to capatilise in Malaysia and China for a podium finish.

It's close between the two, but I think Vettel's been unspectacular due to various reasons, rather than Webber being astonishing.

Same thing happened to Webber last year... no KERS in at least two qually's and one race over the first 4 weekends... articles even questioning whether RBR could prepare two cars... fully expect the Fraulien to figure it out... and end up ahead of MW by seasons end... I wonder if Button flinched passing SV remembering the semi guided missile at Spa in 2010 ?

 

[Mephistopheles]

I've personally never warmed to Webber, partly because he's one of the most difficult people to overtake (and IMO not in a good way)..

I don't know what you mean by "not in a good way" I have never seen Webber do anything untoward when people are trying to overtake him, if he is good at keeping drivers behind him without breaking the rules then how can that be a bad thing...

I know one thing Webber is one of the most straight talking drivers out there unlike Vettel who's arrogance shines like a black eye..

 

[no-FIAt-please]

I believe Mezzer means that Webber doesn't know when he's lost, often he can be too agressive, putting his own and other driver's races in jeopardy. A good defensive driver makes his car as wide as possible, but he knows when he's be beaten and accepts it.

 

[Mephistopheles]

If a driver is racing for position then he should use every tool in his toolbox and never give up,

Just my opinion of course,,

 

[Kewee]

Well I'm on the edge of my seat. oh and I don't chew heads off just bash em together

Yes you do. I've just looked in the mirror. It was my ear you chewed. I've got a big piece out of it with Rasputin teeth marks all over it. I look like i've been in a fight with Mike Tyson.