Jenson Button signs for McLaren

[cider_and_toast]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

"But I suggest instead that you were trolling."

Blimey Fella's I think we need to turn the debate down from a spinal tap like 11 to a more reasonable CTA like 8 or 9.

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Sorry, I will consider myself toned down from now on. I just found it amusing that anyone suggests Alonso should have been a regular points scorer in the 2001 Minardi, but Jenson defied all the critics by trouncing the field in his under-powered, overweight, handling like a Cadillac, 3 year old Honda (whilst racing with one leg in a cast, one arm tied behind his back and blindfolded )

 

[RickD]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I agree, I was far from trolling, just trying to figure out why FB and Muddy think that the drivers currently in the top cars (especially Kimi and Alonso) and not doing that well are apparently seen as better than those who have been in inferior cars and not surprisingly not done so well.

It really is confusing how they work out that a driver who had a pile of steaming manure for 7 years and then won a race in that pile of steaming manure is worse than a driver that only had a pile of steaming manure for 1 year and then had a car that was a campionship winning car and not surpurisingly started to win GPs?!?

What exactly makes a driver brilliant if he can win in a great car, but not in a dire car?

 

[FB]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Ah, but as we have been told before, the driver contributes a maximum 20% to the performance of the package and as it was Brian Moore who stated this fact I for one will not argue, Mr Moore, Sir...

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Because the 2006 Honda wasn't that dire? I'm not saying Jenson is a journeyman, but until this year he hasn't done anything amazing either. Even this year he has only won whilst the car was the class of the field. Since Silverstone, he's been merely good at times, in my opinion.

WRT Alonso, whether you like it or not, he had Renault as a top team, beating Schumacher in what is regarded as a pretty straight fight in 2006, and when he left, they went backwards. McLaren clearly gained speed when he joined. Because of FA? We don't know for sure, but you have to attribute some of the gains to Alonso. On his return to Renault, true they are not the best car (their recent design philosphy seems to be all over the shop), but he has at times got the car higher than it deserves to be, (Singapore notwithstanding). My criticism of him would be that he needs some emotional support around him, and tends to dominate early on in the season, and then 'bring home the bacon' rather than being able come from behind in a title race.

For Kimi, despite being a car breaker, he pretty much beat his McLaren teammates and in 2007 generally had the upper hand over Massa. Last year, Massa raised his game, Kimi retreated. Why? We don't know, but since Massa has been out Kimi is back on form. Question marks about his ability to go head to head with an equally paced teammate yes, but still with bags full of talent and ability, and ultimate speed.

Jenson - Several years of average cars, bad management/team choices, one inherited win before this season, and has been beaten the past few races by his 38 year old teammate. But in those average cars, did he outperform the car. Did he change it from a dog to a rocket through the season? Not often enough, I don't think. So for me, the needle is between journeyman and topliner. I'm still not sure if he's got that bit extra, or whether he needs the car to be 'right' to get the best out of it.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I'm with Muddy on this one. If we wind the clock back 9 months to before the start of testing this season and what was our opinion of Button then? Well lower than a snakes bum in a ditch I would say. Ok so Rubens third place in Silverstone was a touch lucky but he grabbed the opportunity and most fans would agree that over the whole season Rubens performed better than Button.

I also agree that Button made some bad management choices however with hindsight jumping out of his Williams contract proved to be the better of the two options. The question that needs to be asked is that if he had returned to Williams and been able to perform in that car would that have lead to a driver with a better team anyway??

I'm not a Button fan and tend to agree with the point that a great driver makes an average car a great one. Would we perhaps compare Button with Panis without the benefit of this season?

There aren't many examples I can sight of a driver out performing a bad car and then getting his chance in a great car and grabbing that with both hands as well. An obvious one would be Senna at first Toleman and then Lotus. Senna's Toleman performances were at times outstanding and not just in the rain effected Monaco GP. While at Lotus, he took 6 wins and lead numerous races in a car that was consistantly the 3rd or 4th best team on the grid.

 

[RickD]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Muddy - So now Jense inherited his win in Hungary?!? This just gets better and better..

As far as changing the car, it seems that workign with eastern concerns when it comes to F1 is a bad choice as no one can make a descision.

CAT - My impression of Jense is that he is a quick driver who has just never had the car to prove it and still managed to win a GP. Why does no one go on about Webbers record in this respect? 136 Starts, 1 win. He has had much better cars than Jense in the past, yet he still gets people saying he's not a journeyman?!?

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I'd place Webber in the same bracket as Jarno Trulli. A quick driver but more of a one lap specialist. Webber burst on to the scene with a some what lucky points finish for Minardi and since then he has turned in some reasonable performances but nothing too spectacular. The fact that he has finally won a race in the Red Bull which at that stage of this season was the car to beat justifys the faith that has been shown in him. If he hadn't have been able to win in that car then serious questions would be asked about his seat with the team. As for weather or not he's a journeyman I would have to say that on the balance of things he is. That dosn't mean it makes him less of a driver.

As for Jense I agree that he can be quick but as has been said he's the kind of driver that needs the right place, time, car, setup etc. Without the results this season his reputation would be nowhere near what it is now.

How would you have felt about Jody Scheckter prior to 1979? What would we have thought about Mansell prior to 1992. Jacques Villeneuve is another one who could be placed in the Button bracket. I think it's a question that a lot of fans ask, "What would XXX do if he was in that car". Speculation of course.

 

[RickD]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Yeah, thats the point, it is all speculation.

As for Jody Schekter is a rare breeds farmer, that's what I see him as..

 

[FB]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

This thread has gone off at somewhat of a tangent based on what I felt was a fairly innocuous posting but was taken as some sort of "character assasination" of Jenson Button. Some like him, some don't; some rate him, some don't. It's down to opinion really isn't it, same with Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen et al and this season has, more than any other, raised the question "is it the car or the driver". Jenson obvioulsy thinks it's the driver as he wants lots of money for next season, should he win the title.

One thing is for sure if Jenson Button becomes World Drivers Champion this year well done him and I will post a note of congratulations on this very website.

One final thought, I have no issue at all with stating that Mark Webber is a journeyman. I believe the only reason he kept his seat at Red Bull last year was because DC chose to retire and Red Bull probably didn't want to make 2 driver changes at once.

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

To RickD -

Yes inherited; As mentioned earlier, having already gained time following a safety car, he was effectively behind Alonso (Button had one more pitstop still to make) when Alonso's wheel nut fell off, causing him to spin out of the lead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Hungarian_Grand_Prix

I'm not denying he drove well that day, but it was an inherited win nonetheless.

The comparison with Webber is fair, both are good but have yet to prove outstanding drivers. But Webber hasn't had much better cars than Button, at all. In fact, prior to this year, Webber hasn't been in a car better than 5th in the Constructors Championship. I guess you are just deluded.

Webber

Year	Car		Constructors Championship

2002 	Minardi		9th, 2pts  	0 wins

2003 	Jaguar		7th, 18pts 	0 wins

2004 	Jaguar		7th 10pts 	0 wins

2005 	Williams	5th 66pts 	0 wins

2006 	Williams  	8th 11pts 	0 wins

2007 	Red Bull  	5th 24pts 	0 wins

2008 	Red Bull  	7th 29pts 	0 wins

2009 	Red Bull  	2nd 105.5pts 	3 wins

Button

Year	Car		Constructors Championship

2000	Williams	3rd 36 pts	0 wins

2001	Renault		7th 10 pts	0 wins

2002 	Renault		4th 23pts	0 wins

2003 	BAR 		5th 26pts	0 wins

2004 	BAR-Honda	2nd 119pts	0 wins

2005 	BAR-Honda	4th 88 pts	0 wins

2006 	Honda		4th 86pts	1 win

2007 	Honda		8th 6pts	0 wins

2008 	Honda		9th 14pts	0 wins

2009 	Brawn		1st 146pts	8 wins

For the record, I rate Webber about the same as Jenson - Hungary '06 apart, they are both race winners in a car that was the class of the field at the time. They are yet to win in a car that isn't.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

"I believe the only reason he kept his seat at Red Bull last year was because DC chose to retire and Red Bull probably didn't want to make 2 driver changes at once."

Good point and how gutted must Red Bull have been when Webber fell off his bike in the off season.

As I posted some way back up the thread, Button needs to be careful he dosn't fall in to the "Damon Hill Trap" although this could also be called the "Heinz Harold Frentzen trap". A drivers worth is only as much as his team is prepared to pay. It's interesting that Brawn are yet to retain / announce a title sponsor for this season let alone next season. The link up with Virgin being only a temporary one. Should the Merc deal go ahead in the close season that could throw a whole new spin on things. Driver placement for example as well as available budget.

 

[Speshal]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I'm with Muddy on this one. If we wind the clock back 9 months to before the start of testing this season and what was our opinion of Button then? Well lower than a snakes bum in a ditch.

Lucky my mate wasn't paying attention - he banged £20 on Button to win the Australian GP the day that Honda announced they were leaving and on the same day he also put £100 on Jenson to be WDC this year - It's really funny to watch the tension on his face every GP now.

That and I learned a new word today - commensurate

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I'd place Webber in the same bracket as Jarno Trulli. A quick driver but more of a one lap specialist. Webber burst on to the scene with a some what lucky points finish for Minardi and since then he has turned in some reasonable performances but nothing too spectacular. The fact that he has finally won a race in the Red Bull which at that stage of this season was the car to beat justifys the faith that has been shown in him. If he hadn't have been able to win in that car then serious questions would be asked about his seat with the team. As for weather or not he's a journeyman I would have to say that on the balance of things he is. That dosn't mean it makes him less of a driver.

As for Jense I agree that he can be quick but as has been said he's the kind of driver that needs the right place, time, car, setup etc. Without the results this season his reputation would be nowhere near what it is now.

How would you have felt about Jody Scheckter prior to 1979? What would we have thought about Mansell prior to 1992. Jacques Villeneuve is another one who could be placed in the Button bracket. I think it's a question that a lot of fans ask, "What would XXX do if he was in that car". Speculation of course.

I wouldn't disagree with much of that either. Sheckter was very much a fine case of 'right place right time', he even had a complicit teammate to get him over the line. Nelson Snr's last few seasons saw him needing the car to be right. But when it was, he still flew.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

No-one wins races in an awful car. That is an unimpeachable fact. Alonso in the 2007 Honda would be floundering at the back of the grid.

Some drivers get into a top car by pure timing. Felipe Massa is the best example. No-one thought at the start of 2006 that Massa would be in a Ferrari by 2007, but Schumacher retired and Massa has certainly proved his worth.

Fernando Alonso turned up at Renault in 2003 at a midfield team and won 2 Championships with them. Credit to him. However, he has only once had a team-mate within a tenth or two of him and that was at McLaren in 2007, and frankly he lost his head. As he said in an interview last week, he is the most consistent driver in F1.

Jenson Button won 1 race in 153 by the end of the 2008 season. He thoroughly deserved victory in the 2006 Hungarian Grand Prix, lots of people lost their heads that weekend and he kept his at all points. All victories rely on the conditions to some respect, and we wowed about Vettel's win at Monza last year. Wouldn't have happened without the rain or perhaps without Hamilton taking a stupid gamble in qualifying. But it did!

This season, Button did what very few drivers do in any car, and won the first 5 dry races of the year, and 6 out of the first 7 overall. Other than Jim Clark, all World Champions have bad races in their Championship years. Think Lewis Hamilton climbing out of his car at the 2008 Canadian GP. Think Schumacher finishing 12th in China in 2004. Think Mika Hakkinen spinning at Monza in 1999. Its not usually a straight march to the trophy.

Essentially, I would not pay Button a great deal, for I'm not sure how much staying power he has. I think he has hit his peak this year, and I doubt he's going to win another Championship. As Brawn, I'd give him a slight rise, but if I had Barrichello, Senna or Rosberg, I'd feel I could move forward without Button!

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

TBY

 

[FB]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Just thought I would revisit this in light of some of the rumours about who is going where next year. Santander are said to be prepared to pay McLaren €25 million to give Kimi a seat for 2010 and Alonso is reputed to be being paid €25 million a year for 5 years at Ferrari.

Cadena Ser radio reported on Tuesday that the two-time World Champion will sign a deal until 2014 with the Italian marquee with an option of extending the contract by one more year. The deal will earn him a reported €25 million a year.

As Button has proven this year, with the right car, he is equal to the other drivers on the grid. So is his demand for £8 million excessive, especially as he will almost certainly be bringing the No1 sticker to the team?

 

[Brogan]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

When you put it in that context then it does seem a little absurd.

Kimi apparently gets 50 million, Alonso 25 million and yet Jenson can't even get 8 million.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Is there a currency issue going on here, € or £ please?

 

[Brogan]

Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I may be wrong but I believe it's as so:

€50 million - Kimi
€25 million - Alonso (+ €25 million to McLaren if they take on Kimi)
£8 million - Jenson (asked for, not given)