Jenson Button signs for McLaren

Button versus Brawn - The contract fight!

  • Yes - Should Jenson win the WDC he deserves a similar level of remuneration as previous winners

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Interesting piece in the Mail on-line about Button's salary expectation for next year. Apparently Jenson accepted a pay cut from £8 million to £3 million to race for Brawn this year (how did he make ends meet ) but he expects to be paid at the same rate as per his old Honda contract for next year. Although Mercedes are buying in to Brawn the amount of sponsorship on the cars has been fairly scant so is Jenson expecting too much?

There are some other interesting bits in here such as Jenson having to pay some of his own expenses this season, to take his manager and trainer to the circuit for example, and he hasn't received any bonus payments for points or wins. My advice would be to sack his manager :snigger: .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1214672/FORMULA-ONE-Brawn-GP-salary-row-threatens-Jenson-Buttons-drivers-title-bid.html

Thought I would set up poll to see what you all think.

One other question which came to mind, if Button & Brawn don't resolve this where might Jenson end up? The teams weren't exactly queueing up at the door last year but perhaps his performance this year might have changed some peoples minds. But where could he go that might meet his ambition for more race wins and titles and would they meet his salary expectations?
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

It's a tricky one.

No doubt Jenson was thankful just to have a drive this year even if he did have to take a huge pay cut.

However, I suspect he is now resenting the fact that he isn't receiving the normal renumeration a driver does for points and wins.

And no doubt if he does win the WDC then he will demand the same sort of pay as Kimi, Lewis, etc.
If Brawn can't or won't pay that then I expect he'll look at the alternatives but as you say, he wasn't exactly in demand for this season.

Where would he go? No idea really.
Most teams already seem to have pencilled in drivers for 2010 and Jenson hasn't featured on anyone's list as they probably assumed he was staying at Brawn.
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

As with anything else, you charge what you're worth.

OK, Jenson dropped his wages last year but, if he wins the WDC, then surely loads of teams will be seeking his signature...

IMO, some-one with a WDC to his name should be charging the going rate. If Brawn want to keep him, then they have to pay for him...
 
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I think we have seen that the car was certainly a large part of his success and as such Brawn should pay him what they can afford. If he doesn't like it he can go to another team and he can go back to being irrelevant. I am sure there is enough drivers out there that would like to step into a successful team and contend for a championship.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Firstly - If Jense wants to stay with Brawn, he will get paid what they can afford.

Secondly - Who said he wasn't in demand last year? He turned down a contract for Renault that we know about and I am fairly sure he turned down a couple of others, simply because he believed that he would be on the grid in the (what is now known as Brawn) car and that this car would be competative.

FB - I know you don't like Button, but do you really need to post articles with inacuracies and jibes in? Does it make you feel better to do this? Can you not accept the fact that he may be the next WDC due to his skill in a car? Or do you really still think it is just the car and the driver doesn't matter? Has he swamped the clutch on a start like his team mate? Did he not win races early in the season that could have gone to his team mate instead (who everyone seems to respect and it is said that he can be a quick driver)?

I do not understand your constant belittling FB and would really like to understand why you feel the need? You've seen the limits of what drivers can achieve in rubbish cars and Jense has kept up with most of them, so would love to know how you can say he must be slower and worse than x because he has always had dire cars up until this year (excluding one in 2004, where he finished 3rd to 2 far superior Ferraris).
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Jenson's pay cut was part of what it took to get Brawn to the grid - if he's WDC, he'll certainly be more marketable, question is where will it end up....

I think salary expectations may be squeezed somewhat, I would expect him to stay with Brawn, and for his package to move up, but to an historic WDC rate - probably not. Right now the likes of Kimi and Fernando are going to be finding it hard to justify maitaining their earnings on new contracts. Lewis, wise man that he is got locked in a while ago, so he might just stay away from the bargaining table for a season or two.

I expect Jenson will get a pay increase, but it may be along the lines of Salary to £4M, picking up his expenses and a points package. He hasn't dominated the WDC any more than Brawn have. Brawn will have new sponsors and security so there will be some room to manoeuvre, but Ross will be looking at a five year plan with contingencies and won't wreck the team to keep a guy who so nearly retired as an "also-ran" as a result of Honda's weak couple of years and his Brawn gamble - no disrespect to Jenson, but with 24/6/8 cars on the grid finding a driver will only get easier over the next few years, and Ross has always played the long game.

Having said that, Jenson bought his way out of Williams and took a pay cut at Brawn simply because he loves the racing, and wants a chance to win - good attitude, and let's face, £3M is hadly breadline!
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Rick, you are quite right I don't particularly like Jenson as he was very much over hyped when he came into F1 and, until this year, has been very mediocre.

As to the tone of the article, I had hoped to inject a little levity in to it rather than attempting to belittle anyone. £3 million, by anyone's standards, is a vast sum of money and, I think I can safely say without fear of contradiction, Button was vastly over paid in the previous years at Honda.

In terms of inaccuracies, I suggest you take that up with the Daily Mail as all I have quoted is what is written there.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I think a few years ago, drivers' salaries went through a bit of a silly phase.
Let's face it, is Kimi worth twice as much as Lewis or Fernando?

As for Jenson's ability as a driver.
I've never particularly rated him but I never thought he was poor.
He just never stood out for me and I still can't see the so-called "smooth" style he is supposed to have.

This year though he has done a pretty good job against Rubens, after most people predicted he would be soundly beaten (based on 2008 results).

F1 Head To Head 2009

There are still 4 races to go though so he needs to maintain form if he wants to improve his stock for next year.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

FB said:
Rick, you are quite right I don't particularly like Jenson as he was very much over hyped when he came into F1 and, until this year, has been very mediocre.

As to the tone of the article, I had hoped to inject a little levity in to it rather than attempting to belittle anyone. £3 million, by anyone's standards, is a vast sum of money and, I think I can safely say without fear of contradiction, Button was vastly over paid in the previous years at Honda.

In terms of inaccuracies, I suggest you take that up with the Daily Mail as all I have quoted is what is written there.
I can understand why you tried to put some levity into the article, but £3m is not the most a driver is paid by far. Jense was overhyped, but this was only down to the press, not himself. What about Kimi, do you think he is overpaid? Ok, so he has won a WDC, but he spent years in a winning car not winning anything, so does he really deserve his wages?

As for inaccuracies, I was on about the offers from last year. It has been stated elsewhere that Jense turned down contracts as he knew the potential of this years car and wanted to stay with Honda/Brawn. The only time he has messed up was with Williams (and if you want, going to Renault was a mistake for him). How can you call someone a journeyman when they have never been in a car that is capable of winning? Is Webber a journeyman? Has Kimi now turned into one? Has Alonso? Is Rosberg?

The only people that truly seem to be journeymen are Trulli (pun intended), Fisi and Barrichello (due to his years at Ferrari, even thoguh he has shown raw speed sometime throughout his career). The rest who can seem like it are only that way due to the fact that they do not have cars capable of winning.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

RickD said:
As for inaccuracies, I was on about the offers from last year. It has been stated elsewhere that Jense turned down contracts as he knew the potential of this years car and wanted to stay with Honda/Brawn.
:oops:
I'm guilty of the same thing.
I thought he basically had no options for this year and was therefore lucky that Brawn managed to get an entry.

I blame my age ;)
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Rick, I don't recall seeing anything about Jenson being offered a drive at Renault for this year but if that is true my apologies. On his salary, relative to previous achievements Button was on a superstar salary at Honda (more fool them for paying it I suppose) and the correction which took place this year probably bought it to a more appropriate level.

In terms of pay for next year, all drivers say they are in it to win races not for the money (ditto footballers, rugby players etc., etc.), then when contract time comes about they all posture and demand more money than they are probably worth. Yes, if Jenson wins the WDC this year he should be paid a salary commensurate with his achievements BUT within the budget Brawn are able to pay. If he wants to be more than a 1 time World Champion and he thinks Brawn can give him the best car next year surely that is the approach he should be taking?

In terms of journeymen: Webber - yes, Kimi - no, Alonso - no, Rosberg - jury's out, let's see if he gets a better car for next season, Trulli - time to pack it in, Fisi - ditto Trulli, Barrichello - hmm, yeah probably. One problem with labelling Barrichello as a journeyman though, he has been showing Jenson the way home in the last few races ;)
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

No worries Bro. I don't think much was said and it was mostly kept private as it doesn't sell newspapers, but after Flabs dig at him, he mentioned that he had turned down an offer from Renault as well as a couple of others.

Age is an excuse.. LOL
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

FB said:
Rick, I don't recall seeing anything about Jenson being offered a drive at Renault for this year but if that is true my apologies. On his salary, relative to previous achievements Button was on a superstar salary at Honda (more fool them for paying it I suppose) and the correction which took place this year probably bought it to a more appropriate level.

In terms of pay for next year, all drivers say they are in it to win races not for the money (ditto footballers, rugby players etc., etc.), then when contract time comes about they all posture and demand more money than they are probably worth. Yes, if Jenson wins the WDC this year he should be paid a salary commensurate with his achievements BUT within the budget Brawn are able to pay. If he wants to be more than a 1 time World Champion and he thinks Brawn can give him the best car next year surely that is the approach he should be taking?

In terms of journeymen: Webber - yes, Kimi - no, Alonso - no, Rosberg - jury's out, let's see if he gets a better car for next season, Trulli - time to pack it in, Fisi - ditto Trulli, Barrichello - hmm, yeah probably. One problem with labelling Barrichello as a journeyman though, he has been showing Jenson the way home in the last few races ;)
I didn't say any different on his salary expectation and even voted for the whatever Brawn could pay him choice.

How can you say that Kimi isn't a journeyman, but say that the others are, considering the fact that he simply hasn't got the results in a championship winning car that he should have by now?

Also, Alonso has done nothing anywhere apart from at Renault, I can't wait to see how he does if he stays there and loses his coveted 6/10ths clause to his team mate.

Barrichello, I never said he wasn't fast, but why did he struggle against Jense earlier in the season so much when they both had the same amount of time to learn the car? Jense has wobbled due to the pressure of leading the WDC for so long, but it really does look like that is over now as well as Brawn sorting the car (wherever they went wrong with it). Monza has always been a good track for Reubens, but will see what happens at Singapore (if it goes ahead).

Rosberg - Ok, how can the Jury be out on him, but closed on others who have never had a decent car?!? I fail to see the logic.
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

RickD said:
How can you say that Kimi isn't a journeyman, but say that the others are, considering the fact that he simply hasn't got the results in a championship winning car that he should have by now?

Also, Alonso has done nothing anywhere apart from at Renault, I can't wait to see how he does if he stays there and loses his coveted 6/10ths clause to his team mate.
With reference to this Rick, might I refer you to your earlier post that said "...but do you really need to post articles with inacuracies and jibes in? Does it make you feel better to do this?..."

Kimi isn't going to be classed as a journeyman as he's won a WC and had GP wins in other seasons. All bar his debut season has been with 2 of the top teams in F1. (Think of the term, it means going from one employer to the next, usually without really doing anything more than average to justify being kept on in the sport. Fisi is one, until this year Button would have been one in many people's eyes, Heidfeld is one for sure). Maybe he ought to have won more WC but I'd suggest that that is down to lack of application, rather than lack of ability.

And that Alonso career in full
2001 - Minardi, no pts
2003 - 2006 Renault, 2 x WC, 15 wins, 15 poles
2007 - McLaren, 4 wins, 3rd in WC 1 pt behind WC, 2 poles
2008 - 2 1 win
2009 - Occasional flashes of speed in a turd of a car, including 1 pole, probably just seeing the year out till the red car becomes available.

So erm, pointless in his debut season in a Minardi, and 4 wins at McLaren. Yep, that's done nothing elsewhere, given that he's only had 2 seasons elsewhere. One of those was a backmarking team, the other missing out on a 3rd WC by a point.

You decry FB's comments, but all I can see is the same lack of perspective in your JB bias.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Fair enough, but again, with Kimi and Alonso, 2 drivers in top teams, of course they are going to win the occasional GP, even Coulthard managed to win a few GPs, but he was the ultimate journeyman. This doesn't make them any better than other drivers in lesser teams that are not capable of winning a GP.

I actually believe that the Alonso comment isn't a jibe, look at all his team mates at Renault and tell me that they weren't either taken on because they would accept second fiddle or they would accept inferior machinery?

I agree with Heidfeld and didn't even think about him as he is so unremarkable.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

Button needs to be mindful of what I like to call "Damon Hill Syndrome" when trying to negotiate next year.

We all remember how that ended up. A season at Arrows, Seven points, A battered reputation and aside from a win with Jordan (that if we are all honest would have gone to Ralf Schumacher but for Damons frantic call to Jordan on the radio saying that he didn't want to race a rapidly gaining Ralf and that they would finish 1-2 or maybe not at all) a career that slid into an embarassing oblivion.

No man is bigger than his team (ok maybe not including Schuie in that)
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

RickD said:
Fair enough, but again, with Kimi and Alonso, 2 drivers in top teams, of course they are going to win the occasional GP, even Coulthard managed to win a few GPs, but he was the ultimate journeyman. This doesn't make them any better than other drivers in lesser teams that are not capable of winning a GP.

I actually believe that the Alonso comment isn't a jibe, look at all his team mates at Renault and tell me that they weren't either taken on because they would accept second fiddle or they would accept inferior machinery?
.
I did think about Coulthard, I'd bracket him with Barrichello, as a yes/no/maybe - Some days you wonder why they get in the car, others like Valencia this year they are just so stunningly fast that they are in no way at the same level as the likes of Heidfeld.
But win the occasional GP in a top car? 18 in 3 seasons for Alonso, 15 in 5 between 2003-2007 for Kimi. We all know Kimi has been off the boil since 2007, and has returned to form in the last 4 races (without Massa - coincidence?) but Coulthard never won 2 races in a row, so the comparison is unfair. Would you compare Patrese with Mansell and expect them to be classed as equals?

Well, the Alonso comment is a jibe - "He's done nothing..." Clearly he has done more than just achieve things with Renault. "I can't wait to see how he does if he stays there and loses his coveted 6/10ths clause to his team mate" - Do you have evidence of this? Or is it just your conjecture?

If you remember, Trulli was already at Renault when Alonso was promoted to the race team (and won Hungary that season), so he was not only established but then was beaten by Alonso. Fisichella? Maybe, he might have joined as a 2nd fiddle as surely did Piquet Jnr, but are you suggesting that Alonso isn't outrightly quicker than either of those three? I think Benetton/Renault often do favour one driver over another, they have done since the days of Schumacher and maybe before, but it's surely on merit, wouldn't you agree?
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I'll answer that last bit - no, you're not suggesting that, I kind of rambled off-track a little

Fisi and Piquet possibly did accept that Alonso would get the fastest equipment first. Were they chosen purely because of this? If so, that would suggest that Renault made offers at various times to Coulthard, Kimi, Michael, Jenson, JPM, Rubens, maybe Felipe and any other driver you consider worthy of the Renault seat before settling with Fisi/Nelson. Not likely, really.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The simple fact of the matter about Kimi/Alonso is the fact that they have been in top cars for every GP they have won, Jense has won a GP in a very inferior car (as everyone in the pit lane and around the world could see at the time)! Alonso didn't score any points in a Minardi did he?!? Kimi seems to have a lot of very off days throughout any particular season. etc..

What exactly has Alonso acheived outside of Renault (apart from trying to destroy one of the two top teams in F1)? He won in a very fast McLaren that should have been a championship winning car, but couldn't handle having equal status with a team mate. That does not make a great driver.

Yeah, Trulli was a Renault, but then Flav being agent to Alonso had some affect and Trulli is simply a journeyman and 1 lap specialist, its not called the Trulli-train for nothing you know. As for Fisi, I really do think his spirit was broken at Renault and that he was given inferior equipment.

I would prefer to see a WDC who won fairly against his team mate than one who had the best car and was gifted the WDC due to his team mate not being able to compete. Yes, before you start, this comment does include one certain German.
 

Muddytalker

Points Scorer
Re: Button's Brawn Contract

RickD said:
I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The simple fact of the matter about Kimi/Alonso is the fact that they have been in top cars for every GP they have won, Jense has won a GP in a very inferior car (as everyone in the pit lane and around the world could see at the time)! Alonso didn't score any points in a Minardi did he?!? Kimi seems to have a lot of very off days throughout any particular season. etc..
In his 7th season, Jenson won the rain-affected Hungarian GP benefitting from the safety car to close on Alonso, and taking the lead after Alonso retired with a loose wheel nut. In his 'very inferior car', in which he posted the 4th best qualifying time at Hungary, he also finished 4th in the constructors championship. Comparable to Alonso's debut year in the 2001 Minardi? (no points, run by Paul Stoddard. Paul Stoddard!) Just to make sure, the Honda was the very inferior car that finished with 3 podiums and 7 4th places. If you think the situations are comparable, I put it to you that you are deluded, sir. But I suggest instead that you were trolling.

This year, Jenson won 6 out of 7 races, and since then, by which time other teams have caught up the massively superior Brawn, he hasn't looked like winning a single race. So apart from 1 inherited win, he won his races in the toppest of top race cars. As have Kimi and Fernando.
RickD said:
What exactly has Alonso acheived outside of Renault (apart from trying to destroy one of the two top teams in F1)? He won in a very fast McLaren that should have been a championship winning car, but couldn't handle having equal status with a team mate. That does not make a great driver.
Here is surely a contradiction. If Alonso is not, as you say a great driver, then wasn't 3rd place, 1 point behind the WC winner better than he should have done, by your measure of him?

RickD said:
Yeah, Trulli was a Renault, but then Flav being agent to Alonso had some affect and Trulli is simply a journeyman and 1 lap specialist, its not called the Trulli-train for nothing you know.
I agree Trulli is a better qualifier than racer. So doesn't it follow that Alonso is better in races than Trulli, as he's not known as a qualifying specialist?

RickD said:
As for Fisi, I really do think his spirit was broken at Renault and that he was given inferior equipment.
But you've already suggested that he knew that's what he was getting. How could he then have his spirit broken?

I would prefer to see a WDC who won fairly against his team mate than one who had the best car and was gifted the WDC due to his team mate not being able to compete. Yes, before you start, this comment does include one certain German.
I agree, which is why I'm glad Kimi won in 2007, however it rarely happens this way - Instances of 2 topline drivers with equal opportunity usually don't in success, one way or another.
 
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