How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Bushi]

am I right in that Vettel has only won races starting either 1st, or 2nd and only once 3rd

he's not going to shake this tag until he wins starting from after the 2nd row on the grid

And how many times did the others win from further down?

 

[Bushi]

Maybe this is a good question? How good is Mark Webber?

 

[Viscount]

Average at best?

 

[teabagyokel]

Bushi -
2012 GRID POSITIONS OF RACE WINNERS

2, 8, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 11, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1

Not many. Consider also Vettel was 40 seconds clear before the Safety Car and subsequent alternator-pop at Valencia where Alonso won from P11.

 

[Irishgreen]

He will be a W.D.C. x3 very soon, is that good enough?????????????????

 

[aaron8831]

Welcome aaron8831.

Thanks! I've casually followed F1 for a while but have really followed it seriously this year.

 

[Il_leone]

the Vettel arguments

He can only win from pole
He can only win leading into the first corner
He can't overtake

- the next ones he has to prove he has to win from positions from further back than 3rd
- can he win in a car not designed by Newey

Reason why Toro Rosso was good in 2008 is like I 've already said

They had a Ferrari engine
A Chassis designed by Newey
Funding probably 60/40 split between them and Red Bull

Vettel only started to look good when he got the Red Bull chassis it certainly was not a poor car as some people make it out it was faster than the Red Bull itself, Toyota and BMW and probably 3rd fastest

SInce then Toro Rosso have never been as good because the chassis is their own design and the funding is probably something like 80/20 to Red Bull

 

[Il_leone]

Looks like Vettel will answer his critics if he does team up with Alonso at Ferrari in 2014 to say he can't beat a world class driver
--------------------

Bushi
We've seen Alonso and Button prove you do not need to be on pole to win and they've won races starting from 3rd row of the grid or further back

 

[FB]

Does that make John Watson the greatest driver ever?

 

[teabagyokel]

10/16 races won from pole. And one of the others was Vettel.

 

[Il_leone]

I remember a quote FB Schumacher use to use to have a dig at Damon Hill

Damon Hill is great leading from the front but not so when he has to fight through the field to make it out that it was the Williams designed by Newey that is the reason for his success

Alonso has had a few digs at Vettel about not being able to win when the car is not so good

 

[FB]

Let's see which one becomes a 3 x WDC first shall we Il_leone

 

[Incubus]

that's not what I remember him saying though, what he was saying is that we haven't seen him fighting for championships at the wheel of a car that wasn't the best. Not quite the same thing.

 

[teabagyokel]

How about Spa?

 

[cider_and_toast]

Motorsport suffers badly when compared to other sports where individual ability is measured because of the addition of the car and the team as factors in the judgement of excellence.

No driver in F1 would want anything other than the best car they can get. It is then down to the driver to get the most from it. I find the argument, as I've posted in this thread a few times, that a driver should be thought less of because he's winning from pole and winning in a car designed by a brilliant designer to be totally invalid.

Once again, I find myself falling back on the Jim Clark argument.

let's look at the 1965 season in which Clark won his second title:

In ten races that season, Clark claimed 6 poles and 6 wins. His lowest starting position to win was from second which he did twice out of his six wins. The other four races were won by Graham Hill, twice from pole, once by Jackie Stewart from third on the grid and once by Richie Ginther from third on the grid. Please, nobody tell me that as a result of this information that Jim Clark is (and remember, he never won an F1 race in a car that wasn't designed by Chapman) is not one of the greatest drivers the sport has produced.

I can accept if the debate was based on drivers in totally equal cars, would they be able to beat each other. As far as it goes for Vettel though, his record shows he is a great driver.

 

[Quintessentially]

His record is not the contentious issue here.

 

[jez101]

How good is Vettel? My opinion has not changed much on this since 2009. I wrote this in a comment on the BBC site (before I was aware that CTA was so much better )

At 21:27 2nd Mar 2009, You wrote:
Vettel is the next F1 superstar.

F1 drivers have always been ranked by how well they have done in the wet because it levels the playing field. Monza 2008...

Vettel is on his way through the ranks to a top car. Maybe the Red Bull is it, but maybe they just got the jump on the really big teams by signing him to their junior team (which no one else could have done).

The question really is whether the Red Bull is as good as Sebastian Vettel or whether he will make another step up at the end of 2009.

He will be world champion. If I was Ron or Stefano he would already be my driver - whatever the price.

Bottom line, Vettel is either the best or the second best driver in since I started watching F1 in 1980. I can't yet separate him from Senna, but he's doing all the right things.

For me his talent was apparent pretty much from Monza 2008 and ever since then the evidence has been building. I will point you to this that I wrote on here in early 2011 after title #1.

I think Schumacher was a very good driver in a very good car. With Ferrari what they had was also consistency over a long period of time when their machine had 1s / lap over the field. Like Prost, Schumacher did the business by making the whole thing work better - something Fernando is good at but Vettel has yet to have to do in his short career.

I think 2011 went some way towards addressing that and the way he has dragged RBR back to the front in 2012 is his most impressive achievement yet.

Just looking at pure speed on the track though, for me, Vettel is up there with Senna. Yes, the RBR is a great car, but you only need to cite Monza 2008 as evidence that Vettel doesn't need a great car to show what he can do. 2008 reminded me of Senna at Monaco in 84 or Estoril in 85.

The greatest similarity is their qualifying pace. The commitment and control is what separates these two in my eyes. I don't think you can hold it against Vettel that he doesn't win from pole! He is not giving himself a great chance to fix that perception right now, is he?

The other factor is Webber. Mark's record in qualifying vs his team mates was exceptional until Vettel arrived and now he looks second rate.

So, I was right, no?

Those of you who don't believe me - just wait. We will have conclusive proof when he takes on Fernando at Ferrari in 2014/15 and beats him too. If I'm wrong, I will eat my spreadsheet

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Yep, except that the Torro Rosso at Monza in 2008 was the class of the field, as many chose to forget. Great drive from Seb, nonetheless.

 

[jez101]

And he outqualified Bourdais by 0.9s

Before we get into Bourdais bashing, the guy was 4 time champ car champion having won 31 of 73 races between 2004 and 2007.

Anyway, ExtremeNinja I think that what has happened since 2008 proves that it was not exactly a fluke

 

[Viscount]

It was the start of what's become an average Vettel weekend of pole, leading the entire race and win.

In every full season he's raced in F1, Vettel has outscored Mark Webber, even if you take away the points from his Monza win.